To think women are women's worst enemies for equality?

[CherryBlossomTreee]

I've just got a new job at a senior level. My new secretary has emailed to work out some logistics before I start and to introduce me via cc to the rest of the secretarial/admin team. At the same level in the company are 3 men, who I'll call Mr Big, Mr Bigger and Mr Biggest. I am replacing Mr Big.

It appears in this company the convention is to call the seniors by their surname - so throughout the email she writes of Mr Big, Mr Bigger and Mr Biggest. However, when I am mentioned, I am Cherry rather than Ms BlossomTreee. For example 'When Mr Big leaves, Cherry will be taking over the X account. Mr Biggest will have the conference room for team meetings on Mondays and Wednesday lunchtimes, Mr Bigger will have it on Tuesday lunchtime and Cherry can choose between Thursday and Friday when she arrives - Mr Big always had it on Thursday'

Now, I would much rather my secretary called me by my first name. But when introducing me to a wider group, some of whom I will be managing, it feels incredibly undermining to use my first name if the convention is all the seniors are known by their surname.

I know from past experience if I try and adjust it so I am also known as Ms BlossomTree rather than Cherry, I will be seen as 'difficult' and it will make my working relationships harder, and since I will partly be working remotely (as the others do too) this would be especially challenging. So, I will just have to suck it up, breathe deeply and once again prove that I am as good as those whose ability and seniority is instantly accepted by grace of them having a Y chromosome.

I am just so sick that in the fight for equality it often seems to be other women who do a lot of the undermining.

Anyone have any soothing words?

I don’t understand she’s your secretary just say hey can you call me x. Instead of all this mad fretting.

Congratulations on the new role.

That is really frustrating. But I think I would drop an email - or Teams message - to your secretary to say you're happy for her to call you Cherry, but would appreciate if in company comms she refers to you as MsBlossomTree, as with Mr Bigger & Mr Biggest

Ask her why she referred to you by Cherry and not Ms Blossom Tree? it would wind me up too. She can call you Cherry in the confines of your office but you expect to be called the same as your peers in all professional situations.

She probably isn't aware of her own ingrained sexism.

This is tricky - it could be that for introducing you, Cherry is being used rather than Ms BlossomTree so that people actually know your first name!

If you'd prefer them to use your first name, and that's what they've used in the email I wouldn't be too put out - I'd probably just assume Mr Bigger and Mr Biggest had been idiots previously and requested the 'Mr' title, or that the secretary is so used to using Mr Bigger and Mr Biggest in general emails to clients / externals (and presumably will use Ms BlossomTree in more formal communication going forward rather than Cherry) that she's put it in this email too.

Do you know Mr Bigger and Mr Biggests first names? I'd also wonder if she didn't want to put "Tony" and "Martin" incase you didn't know who was who?

Your secretary can call you Cherry, but you are Ms BlossomTree in emails. Let her know that is your protocol. What’s so difficult about that?

Why not just point it out?

I wouldn't think you were difficult if you said 'hey, did you notice that you introduced the men woth their surnames and me by cherry? Maybe because we automatically want to make women seem more approachable. But actually it could contribute to me being taken less seriously. And we don't want that as women. So in future maybe try call me by my surname to others. I'm fine with you calling me cherry though obviously'.

She can call you your first name when you’re alone but refer to you as Ms blossom when introducing you to a wider group.

Just be clear to her about when to use your first name and when to use your name and title.

I know from past experience if I try and adjust it so I am also known as Ms BlossomTree rather than Cherry, I will be seen as 'difficult' and it will make my working relationships harder, and since I will partly be working remotely (as the others do too) this would be especially challenging. So, I will just have to suck it up, breathe deeply and once again prove that I am as good as those whose ability and seniority is instantly accepted by grace of them having a Y chromosome.

Having read that ^^ I'd say you are your own worst enemy when it comes to equality.

Why are you so worried about being seen as 'difficult'? I bet the men at senior level aren't worried about that sort of thing.

Just tell your secretary to refer to you in the same way as the others and stop worrying about 'how it makes you look'.

That's your female socialisation talking. If you want to be Ms Big then you need to stop pandering to others and fretting about getting a reputation as difficult.

You're ms big. Being difficult and saying harsh truths is surely part of the job description?

To me it's all a load of corporate BS, it's why I could never work in an office. Why would senior people be called by their surname but not junior people - are they less worthy? Why would men be called by their surname and not women - are they less worthy? Why is being called by your surname even seen as more respectful - it seems so outdated - but at the same time you should have the same same rule for everyone IMO. Either everyone is referred to by surname in emails or no one is. Earning the right to be called by your surname because you are male and more senior is just pathetic IMO.

This is your secretary and I think you need to get things straight with her. Just ask her to name everyone as Mr/Mrs in her emails out - not just senior men or senior women but everyone. If being called by your surname is respectful then everyone deserves to be treated with respect. Being afraid of looking difficult is often what holds women back IMO - in that way YOU are your own worst enemy. You don't have to be difficult about it, or rude or make her feel bad, just say that's how you like it done and why (to show the same respect to all) and it's all positive IMO.

Oh yes, women are most certainly FAR worse than men for being sexist arseholes.
Or maybe you need to just tackle the issue rather than make sweeping generalisations

As a senior manager I would expect you to be able to just tell people what you want and rise above any comments. I would just tell people what I want. In fact you’ve waltzed in and behind her back are blaming a more junior woman for something you’re not prepared to tackle. I’d spend some time to reflect on how well you’re supporting the quest for equality.

• Ask her why she referred to you by Cherry and not Ms Blossom Tree? it would wind me up too. She can call you Cherry in the confines of your office but you expect to be called the same as your peers in all professional situations.

She probably isn't aware of her own ingrained sexism.*

This.

It is sexism, not “mad fretting” as someone said. It shouldn’t be our job to correct it, but unfortunately it is. It also shouldn’t be our job to worry about the emotions of the people who have offended us, but unfortunately it is. If you reply to this gently but firmly, you could get an ally. It’s relentless.

But no, women are not our worst enemy. They’re worse than we hope for but better than men. Sorry this is happening to you.

That's your female socialisation talking. If you want to be Ms Big then you need to stop pandering to others and fretting about getting a reputation as difficult.

You're ms big. Being difficult and saying harsh truths is surely part of the job description?

Agree wholeheartedly with this.

Congratulations BTW @CherryBlossomTreee

I hate with a passion the old school I'm Mr Big and will insist on calling my minions, usually female, by their first names. Either everyone is Mr Big, Ms Big or Mr Small, or everyone is Dave, Carol and Pete.

@Hollyhead

As a senior manager I would expect you to be able to just tell people what you want and rise above any comments. I would just tell people what I want. In fact you’ve waltzed in and behind her back are blaming a more junior woman for something you’re not prepared to tackle. I’d spend some time to reflect on how well you’re supporting the quest for equality.

This 100%

Why on earth would you apply to work in a company where they go by surnames for certain levels of staff and by first names for the rest?

That's the problem here, not what you've written about. That's so messed up...

In certain sectors rank and surname is normal to address senior people and first name to address less senior.

So if I am conversing up the rank I could say mr /mrs or rank then surname and if I am addressing lower I would use first names

As the persons Pa I would refer as their rank
Along with everyone else's

@ouch321

Why on earth would you apply to work in a company where they go by surnames for certain levels of staff and by first names for the rest?

That's the problem here, not what you've written about. That's so messed up...

I agree with this. I've only worked somewhere the seniors were addressed by surname in another country and twenty years ago.

If you want to be Ms Big tell your PA. Otherwise be the breath of fresh air that brings the organisation into the 2000s.

The Mr Bigs wouldn’t care a jot about being seen as difficult and would tell the secretary to refer to them appropriately in line with how they refer to other senior staff.

So actually, you are your worst enemy here, not the ‘other women’ you’re referring to.

That was ingrained misogyny at work on her part, however, you’re also being your worst enemy. How do you wish to be addressed? Start from there.

I think part of the issue is I've come from a company where everyone is first names and I am far more comfortable with that, I was just a bit surprised that if the company I'm moving to has a culture of surnames that that culture is dependent on seniority and Y chromosome possession.

I haven't yet started and will tackle this as a conversation when I start. As much as I hate a surname for seniors culture, its a big company so if that is the culture and I am known as first name I will be assumed to be more junior than I am.

It is also a very male dominated industry, so the very fact I am female makes it likely my role will be mistaken and that is before the introductions vary

I don't believe in using surnames for more senior people and I'd be saying, when introducing myself that I would want people to call me by my first name to create an inclusive culture. I bet there are more senior males of a certain background type and the less senior are mainly females or those from different minority groups ? What's the social mobility like in the organisation?

Nip it in the bud now.
Write, only to the secretary and explain how you would like to be referred to. And don't waver.

congrats on the new job

@DiddyHeck being seen as difficult is a problem as you need your secretary to be telling you the things you need to know that others won't/don't tell you... if you offend them, they will do their job but not the 'fringe' parts that actually help you be successful in yours.

Sorry but if you can't say to the person who will be your new secretary 'In future correspondence please refer to me as Ms BlossomTreee' you have far bigger issues to worry about.