To think women are women's worst enemies for equality?

[CherryBlossomTreee]

I've just got a new job at a senior level. My new secretary has emailed to work out some logistics before I start and to introduce me via cc to the rest of the secretarial/admin team. At the same level in the company are 3 men, who I'll call Mr Big, Mr Bigger and Mr Biggest. I am replacing Mr Big.

It appears in this company the convention is to call the seniors by their surname - so throughout the email she writes of Mr Big, Mr Bigger and Mr Biggest. However, when I am mentioned, I am Cherry rather than Ms BlossomTreee. For example 'When Mr Big leaves, Cherry will be taking over the X account. Mr Biggest will have the conference room for team meetings on Mondays and Wednesday lunchtimes, Mr Bigger will have it on Tuesday lunchtime and Cherry can choose between Thursday and Friday when she arrives - Mr Big always had it on Thursday'

Now, I would much rather my secretary called me by my first name. But when introducing me to a wider group, some of whom I will be managing, it feels incredibly undermining to use my first name if the convention is all the seniors are known by their surname.

I know from past experience if I try and adjust it so I am also known as Ms BlossomTree rather than Cherry, I will be seen as 'difficult' and it will make my working relationships harder, and since I will partly be working remotely (as the others do too) this would be especially challenging. So, I will just have to suck it up, breathe deeply and once again prove that I am as good as those whose ability and seniority is instantly accepted by grace of them having a Y chromosome.

I am just so sick that in the fight for equality it often seems to be other women who do a lot of the undermining.

Anyone have any soothing words?

Why are excluding medical doctors from not being up themselves and power tripping egomaniacs?

My GP isn't, I'm happy to say. I call him Steve!

Maybe she doesn’t know whether your miss, mrs it ms. Tbh I’ll often reply to men as Mr x in correspondence but because I’m not sure of their title I’ll refer to women by their first names.
Personally anyway I wouldn’t be offended by her referring to me by my first name as a women as maybe she just felt more familiar with me as my secretary or because I’m another women. Would be more suspicious if e.g. all of a certain race referred to by surnames and then not myself

OK, so this was 8 years ago but I worked for a company (not for very long!) where the admin "girls" were upstairs and the sales team (nearly all men) were down one flight of stairs. There was a problem I was having with one of the sales team, emails going back and forth, so I said "I'm just going to go and talk to him". I got told by my line manager that under no circumstances was I to go down there as the girls "distracted" the men's important work. Not one of the very established women had challenged this in all the years they had worked there so the culture persisted.

I think, at some point, you should ask them the question about why there is hierarchy in place, what business need is there for it?

No women are not enemies…they are just ingrained with unconscious bias same as everyone. Misogynists are women worst enemies

Just talk to her fgs. Ask her why she did it? It’s a way of getting to know each other? While you’re at it ask why bigger and biggest are so stuck up their own condescending and superior arses to insist on being called Mr. it’s so old fashion and doesn’t make people respect their seniority. Ask her what’s that all about? Then work on bigger and biggest to get them to stop that twattish behaviour after you’ve earned your stripes.

Unless you’re all medical consultants in which case it’s just about ok, but even then surely colleagues call them by first name?

Maybe she doesn’t know whether your miss, mrs it ms. Tbh I’ll often reply to men as Mr x in correspondence but because I’m not sure of their title I’ll refer to women by their first names.

JFC. that is what Ms is for.

The idea that a company is a heirarchical entity where people expect the courtesy of Mr Biggest etc doesn't mean they are up themselves. It is an admittedly old fashioned attitude, but there is nothing wrong with it. The issue is that OP should also be afforded the same courtesy.

@Autumn42

Maybe she doesn’t know whether your miss, mrs it ms. Tbh I’ll often reply to men as Mr x in correspondence but because I’m not sure of their title I’ll refer to women by their first names. Personally anyway I wouldn’t be offended by her referring to me by my first name as a women as maybe she just felt more familiar with me as my secretary or because I’m another women. Would be more suspicious if e.g. all of a certain race referred to by surnames and then not myself

Erm, sex is a protected characteristic just like race. Why are you thinking one can be the cause of discriminatory behaviour and the other can’t?

In situations like thos, I tend to play stupid. Ask the secretary what the culture is, do the mr bigs prefer to be called by first name or is it just in formal coms etc. How would someone normally refer to someone in your position? It may just be a weird quirk of mr bigger and mr biggest and the rest of the company dont think about it. It might just be her, and being questioned will make her actually think about it. But depending on the answer you might be able to ask further questions to make it more equal without sounding like you're kicking off

I would tell her as it is, addressing men and women differently will give the impression that you are junior to Mr Bigger and Mr Biggest. So either all last names or all first names.

That’s just how I would personally interpret the situation as a women, maybe my experience of being treated differently in a non consequential way as a woman has usually been done with benign intentions where as most peoples experienced of being treated differently due to race rarely is

@WouldIBeATwat

That’s just how I would personally interpret the situation as a women, maybe my experience of being treated differently in a non consequential way as a woman has usually been done with benign intentions where as most peoples experience of being treated differently due to race rarely is

Sexism doesn't require malicious intent to be harmful.

[quote Autumn42]@WouldIBeATwat

That’s just how I would personally interpret the situation as a women, maybe my experience of being treated differently in a non consequential way as a woman has usually been done with benign intentions where as most peoples experience of being treated differently due to race rarely is[/quote]
How can it ever be “non-consequential”?!

There was a sign in our works kitchen that said

“Clean up after yourself, your mother doesn’t work here.”

No doubt you think that’s inconsequential. It isn’t. #EverydaySexism hurts us all, and I’ll be fucked if my daughter is going to grow up with that sort of shit.

(After I added #EverydaySexism to the sign it disappeared very quickly.)

Something like that would perhaps mildly irritate me but I wouldn’t get a bee in my bonnet about it. I have sons and daughters and if they are treated slightly differently at times but essentially as having the same worth and opportunities for a happy life then that’s the important thing. If my children were treated differently on racial grounds then I would be much more worried.

Recognise two things.

1. EA’s / PA’s can be your biggest allies or not. She most likely knows where all the skeletons are hidden in this company. Reserve your judgement against her (that in itself is anti equality) and figure out the lay of the land once you’ve joined. Right now you have absolutely sweet FA knowledge of the inner workings of the organisation you have joined.

2. as the first senior woman in an all male company, do you really want to tread in their footsteps?

I think genuinely you should check yourself. And I say this as a woman who was appointed into my first board member gig two years ago - in a male dominated industry.

You have no idea of the culture, or the personalities. Going in with preformed judgements hurts you. The EA to the CEO became my strongest ally and supporter. I got time with the CEO whenever I needed it and the inside track. Despite not quite knowing how to approach me/ etc early on.

If you want to be the woman who stands for equality, don’t be so quick to judge others.

"From the outset she was extraordinarily respectful to Sara. She never referred to her as anything but Miss Gray; she called her Miss Gray to her face despite a dozen expostulations from Sara.

“This is a friendly office,” Sara cried. “I can’t stand you not calling me by my name. It makes me look so snooty. We’re all friends here.”

Eve had replied firmly that it was not a friendly office. It was a very cutthroat company indeed. Eve had asked Sara how many of the women secretaries called their male bosses by their first names. Sara couldn’t work it out. Eve could. None of them. Sara agreed reluctantly that this might be so. Eve pressed home her point. Even the managers and assistant managers on Sara’s level were not going to escape, they all called Sara by her first name because she was a woman, but she felt the need to call many of them Mr.
Kings Cross from Victoria Line by Maeve Binchy 1980

I should add, the EA herself had been dealing with the macho BS for years and was going with the flow as that was easier. I’m not judging her, and understanding the situation we all lifted one another.

@Chimchiminie

I think YABU by singling out women for attention here. Unconscious sexism / discrimination is hardly limited to other women. And although annoying that anyone might address you and your make colleagues differently, there’s no reason why females should be held to a higher standard than males. The fact that she’s a woman is irrelevant here.

But a woman sent the email to introduce OP.

If a man had done the same thing it would still be sexist. Where is the unconscious sexism?

Why are excluding medical doctors from not being up themselves and power tripping egomaniacs?

Because they usually save lives.

@Arabellla

But a woman sent the email to introduce OP.

Yes

If a man had done the same thing it would still be sexist.

Yes

Where is the unconscious sexism?

When the female assistant referred to the OP by her first name and her male colleagues by their surnames in email correspondence, as detailed in the OP.

I’m not sure what you’re getting at.

[quote CherryBlossomTreee]@DiddyHeck being seen as difficult is a problem as you need your secretary to be telling you the things you need to know that others won't/don't tell you... if you offend them, they will do their job but not the 'fringe' parts that actually help you be successful in yours.[/quote]
Yep. If you did this to me I'd think you were a twat. I'd still have to do my jobs, but I wouldn't do you any favours. Especially if you told me by email and not face to face as people are suggesting.
I don't see where your proof is that you are being treated differently because you're a woman either. Was she introduced to you by first name?

[quote Chimchiminie]@Arabellla

But a woman sent the email to introduce OP.

Yes

If a man had done the same thing it would still be sexist.

Yes

Where is the unconscious sexism?

When the female assistant referred to the OP by her first name and her male colleagues by their surnames in email correspondence, as detailed in the OP.

I’m not sure what you’re getting at.[/quote]
You said OP is singling out women.

I don’t think OP is singling out women, she would have been as annoyed I think if her secretary was male and did this.

It’s her secretary singling out OP, not the other way.

@emzz8

Oh OP. It would really piss me off !!! Little cheeky cow

What? You're the cheeky cow. And why would you refer to another woman as 'little' in addition to the other insults.

Yep, I’ve had this twice at different offices. The second was a volunteer role where I didn’t mind being seen as difficult and I just asked on a geoup email if there was an etiquette to use first names only for new people? They said it was an error and it didn’t happen again.

Women are a problem for equality but so is the “don’t make a fuss” attitude.

Ps when I used to have secretaries I found many of them absolutely hated working for women, it is definitely a thing. With their male bosses they had a semi-flirty ‘wifey’ or ‘morherly’ attitude but with a female boss they seemed to feel competitive and aggressive

@Thewindwhispers

Ps when I used to have secretaries I found many of them absolutely hated working for women, it is definitely a thing. With their male bosses they had a semi-flirty ‘wifey’ or ‘morherly’ attitude but with a female boss they seemed to feel competitive and aggressive

OP's secretary hasn't done anything to suggest she hates working for her. She has simply referred to her by her first name in internal communication, which is quite normal. First names are the norm in the workplace now even in external communication.