To think women are women's worst enemies for equality?

[CherryBlossomTreee]

I've just got a new job at a senior level. My new secretary has emailed to work out some logistics before I start and to introduce me via cc to the rest of the secretarial/admin team. At the same level in the company are 3 men, who I'll call Mr Big, Mr Bigger and Mr Biggest. I am replacing Mr Big.

It appears in this company the convention is to call the seniors by their surname - so throughout the email she writes of Mr Big, Mr Bigger and Mr Biggest. However, when I am mentioned, I am Cherry rather than Ms BlossomTreee. For example 'When Mr Big leaves, Cherry will be taking over the X account. Mr Biggest will have the conference room for team meetings on Mondays and Wednesday lunchtimes, Mr Bigger will have it on Tuesday lunchtime and Cherry can choose between Thursday and Friday when she arrives - Mr Big always had it on Thursday'

Now, I would much rather my secretary called me by my first name. But when introducing me to a wider group, some of whom I will be managing, it feels incredibly undermining to use my first name if the convention is all the seniors are known by their surname.

I know from past experience if I try and adjust it so I am also known as Ms BlossomTree rather than Cherry, I will be seen as 'difficult' and it will make my working relationships harder, and since I will partly be working remotely (as the others do too) this would be especially challenging. So, I will just have to suck it up, breathe deeply and once again prove that I am as good as those whose ability and seniority is instantly accepted by grace of them having a Y chromosome.

I am just so sick that in the fight for equality it often seems to be other women who do a lot of the undermining.

Anyone have any soothing words?

@eurochick since I prefer first names maybe you are right and I should go in and encourage everyone to call ALL the seniors by their first names - totally agree with @icenii regarding inclusive culture. And to answer the question - I'm the first female in a senior role they've ever had.

Don't emulate this culture, break it!

[quote CherryBlossomTreee]@DiddyHeck being seen as difficult is a problem as you need your secretary to be telling you the things you need to know that others won't/don't tell you... if you offend them, they will do their job but not the 'fringe' parts that actually help you be successful in yours.[/quote]
Oh come on, just speak up like I've no doubt the senior men do.You're going to struggle in this job if you don't learn to do that. Take responsibility for how you want to be addressed and stop worrying about the ifs and buts.

I get that OP, but you are a woman at director level. We need you to woman up and make it normal that we are treated the same as the men. You can cultivate a perfectly good relationship with your secretary, first name terms both ways and so on, whilst emphasising to her that you want to be deferred to in the same way as Mr Big.

She's a woman - if she doesn't get this you are going to have to spell it out. I have railed and railed against the need for women to act like the men to get into the top positions, but this is how we are going to get women up there and once we're inside, like a Trojan horse, start to change company culture from within.

my go-to for any situation is: what would a man do?

On the wider point, yes women are their worst enemies for equality. Most women don't seem to grasp the fact that we could get equality almost overnight if that's what we actually wanted. Most men could be won over if they thought we wanted equality. That's why feminists find their progress so slow, women's rights is seen as feminism, get feminism is not about equality. You get equality through seeing people as equal.

If this is an issue, there will be more.

What us so difficult about just asking her to ask to keep naming conventions uniform in all correspondence. Spell it out that if one name is formal all need to be, and one person is first name only, then all others should be the same.

Don't start bringing feminism into it or anything else which is excessive. You want to address email standards. You can address anything else as it arises.

Do you think a man in this situation would think twice about challenging being referred to as "John" when others in his peer group are referred to as Mr Big etc? He definitely wouldn't be bothered about being seen as difficult - it wouldn't even occur to him.

Just tell sec firmly and politely that you are happy for her to use your first name when conversing but in emails of this nature you wish to be referred to in the same way as your colleagues. No need to apologise or justify. She may be unclear if you are Miss/Mrs/Ms/ other so use the opportunity to clarify that too.

Even if it is "difficult" sometimes we need to be difficult to challenge difficult things like endemic sexism.

This is why many senior execs insist on hiring their own secretary / PA. I would suggest you sit down in a room with her and hash all of this out - focus on it as you learning about the organisation. It is really important you trust each other and if you don’t it might be better to start having development conversations with her to see if there’s something else she wants to try.

No. Other women aren’t our biggest problem. That’s your own misogyny showing.

This sounds like a bunch of bollocks. I'm not calling my seniors Mrs or Mr.

Just refer to them as Dave and John and encourage your Secretary to do the same.

Most women don't seem to grasp the fact that we could get equality almost overnight if that's what we actually wanted

I wish this were true but I fear it is not. I think even a lot of the "good guys" who talk the talk about equality secretly or subconsciously like the fact that men are at the top of the pecking order.

I agree she probably isn’t stupid if she’s been a PA for execs this long. There’s probably a really simple reason for her not to use the same naming conventions for you - either she doesn’t know whether to refer to you as Ms / Mrs, or you told her to refer to her by name and so she did, or she was loyal to Mr Big and is either hurt he left or may have been offered a job in his new organisation & so doesn’t care - if this last point you need to manage her out and get a new PA.

Holy cow - so you think informing the whole company that everyone should be known by their first names from now on because you prefer it is NOT SEEN AS DIFFICULT - are you mad???????

And if you GENUINELY prefer first names why are you starting this thread at all?

@Ozanj

This is why many senior execs insist on hiring their own secretary / PA. I would suggest you sit down in a room with her and hash all of this out - focus on it as you learning about the organisation. It is really important you trust each other and if you don’t it might be better to start having development conversations with her to see if there’s something else she wants to try.

Talk about making a meal of it! She just needs to tell her she'd like email correspondence to be kept as standard/uniform.

No need for sitting in a room, hashing it out or seeing if she wants to try something else. That's way OTT.

I agree this is sexism op, although I’m not sure it’s your PA’s fault, maybe a wider society thing. I am a teacher and my ex headmaster would only allow us to refer to him as Mr Smith (not real name) and he also referred to older male teachers as Mr etc. He always referred to me with my first name and this was one reason I left, as I found the school to have a sexist culture, this was just a symptom. However, I kind of wish now I had stayed and challenged it. You’re senior so you should challenge it, unlike me!

I don't think bringing feminism into this is stupid - what a really weird attitude to a way of thinking that wants men and women to be treated equally.

I also don't think OP should barge into the first exec meeting and demand they change their culture. That would be overstepping. The best way to get change is first to get women into exec positions (so go OP!) and the second is to work out how to make the change.

Confronting a men's club head on won't end well. We know that.

As it happens in my company we have an initiative to get more women into the higher echelons. They have a two pronged (well more, but the first thing you notice are these two) strategy: headhunt from competitors, and promote from within by mentoring women and identifying those who will do well.

OP is in the first of those groups, as seen from my perspective, and for me her best bet is to get in there, go with the culture and then work out how to adapt it well so that it is a welcoming place - especially for women and other minorities - to work.

@Gowithme

To me it's all a load of corporate BS, it's why I could never work in an office. Why would senior people be called by their surname but not junior people - are they less worthy? Why would men be called by their surname and not women - are they less worthy? Why is being called by your surname even seen as more respectful - it seems so outdated - but at the same time you should have the same same rule for everyone IMO. Either everyone is referred to by surname in emails or no one is. Earning the right to be called by your surname because you are male and more senior is just pathetic IMO.

This is your secretary and I think you need to get things straight with her. Just ask her to name everyone as Mr/Mrs in her emails out - not just senior men or senior women but everyone. If being called by your surname is respectful then everyone deserves to be treated with respect. Being afraid of looking difficult is often what holds women back IMO - in that way YOU are your own worst enemy. You don't have to be difficult about it, or rude or make her feel bad, just say that's how you like it done and why (to show the same respect to all) and it's all positive IMO.

Mrs?

A PA is a very precious person, in every sense of the word!

@ANameChangeAgain

That's your female socialisation talking. If you want to be Ms Big then you need to stop pandering to others and fretting about getting a reputation as difficult.

You're ms big. Being difficult and saying harsh truths is surely part of the job description?

Agree wholeheartedly with this.

Congratulations BTW @CherryBlossomTreee

I hate with a passion the old school I'm Mr Big and will insist on calling my minions, usually female, by their first names. Either everyone is Mr Big, Ms Big or Mr Small, or everyone is Dave, Carol and Pete.

Exactly - I hate it and it’s extremely patriarchal. As you say the seniors are almost always male and the minions are almost always female.

OP, I think directing your anger at the actions of a junior woman in what is clearly a highly patriarchal organisation is completely misunderstanding workplace sexism and equality.

@MorningStarling

On the wider point, yes women are their worst enemies for equality. Most women don't seem to grasp the fact that we could get equality almost overnight if that's what we actually wanted. Most men could be won over if they thought we wanted equality. That's why feminists find their progress so slow, women's rights is seen as feminism, get feminism is not about equality. You get equality through seeing people as equal.

Wrong. But spouting that crap is a good way to get male approval, if you need it.

I really don’t understand why you’d want to collude with and perpetuate such an outdated working culture. I thought the ridiculous use of titles in the workplace had bitten the dust a long time ago. It certainly hasn’t been used anywhere I’ve worked in the last 35 years.

Be the voice of innovation and change and bring the archaic culture into the 21st century.

Right now OP can: carry on being the only one in senior management being referred to by everyone by firstname with the contempt that familiarity brings
or she can go in there and see how it goes for a month or two and then start to address it?

Someone coming into a company and shouting the odds from Day 1, is getting nowhere fast, with peers or subordinates. We don't like it but you have to play the game for a while to get the lie of the land and learn the moves. Then start the change.

Just tell them all how you'd like to be addressed?

If you like being called by your first name, grand. Leave it at that.

If you don't, just say it to everyone. Its literally that simple.

maybe you are right and I should go in and encourage everyone to call ALL the seniors by their first names

I hope this was sarcasm