To think women are women's worst enemies for equality?

[CherryBlossomTreee]

I've just got a new job at a senior level. My new secretary has emailed to work out some logistics before I start and to introduce me via cc to the rest of the secretarial/admin team. At the same level in the company are 3 men, who I'll call Mr Big, Mr Bigger and Mr Biggest. I am replacing Mr Big.

It appears in this company the convention is to call the seniors by their surname - so throughout the email she writes of Mr Big, Mr Bigger and Mr Biggest. However, when I am mentioned, I am Cherry rather than Ms BlossomTreee. For example 'When Mr Big leaves, Cherry will be taking over the X account. Mr Biggest will have the conference room for team meetings on Mondays and Wednesday lunchtimes, Mr Bigger will have it on Tuesday lunchtime and Cherry can choose between Thursday and Friday when she arrives - Mr Big always had it on Thursday'

Now, I would much rather my secretary called me by my first name. But when introducing me to a wider group, some of whom I will be managing, it feels incredibly undermining to use my first name if the convention is all the seniors are known by their surname.

I know from past experience if I try and adjust it so I am also known as Ms BlossomTree rather than Cherry, I will be seen as 'difficult' and it will make my working relationships harder, and since I will partly be working remotely (as the others do too) this would be especially challenging. So, I will just have to suck it up, breathe deeply and once again prove that I am as good as those whose ability and seniority is instantly accepted by grace of them having a Y chromosome.

I am just so sick that in the fight for equality it often seems to be other women who do a lot of the undermining.

Anyone have any soothing words?

Oh OP. It would really piss me off !!!
Little cheeky cow

On the wider point, yes women are their worst enemies for equality. Most women don't seem to grasp the fact that we could get equality almost overnight if that's what we actually wanted.

Really?

I think YABU by singling out women for attention here. Unconscious sexism / discrimination is hardly limited to other women. And although annoying that anyone might address you and your make colleagues differently, there’s no reason why females should be held to a higher standard than males. The fact that she’s a woman is irrelevant here.

Most women don't seem to grasp the fact that we could get equality almost overnight if that's what we actually wanted

Do you honestly believe this?

@brefugee - thank you for your insights. This is of course what in reality I will do - go in, get on with it and then try and make it more inclusive. This is how I have successfully become a senior in a male-dominated industry thus far. I guess I had just hoped there would become a point where it was less of an issue (haha)

I think I was also disappointed that the secretary - who seems hyper efficient, friendly and helpful - couldn't see the glaring inconsistency in her email.

I am also unsure if Mr Big wished to stay (this is a permanent role replacing a temporary one) so posters who noted the secretary may be loyal to him and be aggreived he is not staying could be correct, so perhaps I am entirely wrong in assuming this is anything to do with me being female.

Just another thought: it might be that Mr Bigger and Mr Biggest have only spoken about you in high level meetings so have only referred to you as Cherry so she hadn't even thought about it.

@Notimeforaname

Most women don't seem to grasp the fact that we could get equality almost overnight if that's what we actually wanted

Do you honestly believe this?

What an absolutely insane statement. If only someone had told me that 50 years ago when my feminist journey began.

@Chimchiminie that is a fair point; I do subconsciously hold women to a higher standard.

@girlmom21 you are probably right, but I'd assume they refer to each other by first names in meetings too (when I've met them they've used first names when talking to each other)

Since she seems efficient, friendly and helpful in all other respects, perhaps you could speak to her in a kind and friendly way about it?

So just sit down with tea/coffee at your weekly catch up or what ever and just say "I noticed this in the email you sent - a tiny thing but I've come up against a lot of sexism in my career and these little things can build up." She will probably apologise profusely - tell her not to worry about it ("it is so commonplace in our society") but that you want to be seen on the same working plane as the men. Maybe ask her if she's come up against anything similar?

On the other hand, there are probably a few things you have done to her that have made her feel "less than" in her role. Is her actual title "secretary"?

@nothappytobeheretoday thats a nice way of phrasing it.
And yes,her title is secretary - her email footer is 'Secretary to Mr Big'. Her actual role however is clearly so much more - masses of coordination and generally keeping everything running.

I agree with this. I've only worked somewhere the seniors were addressed by surname in another country and twenty years ago.

Same here. I can't imagine what kind of organisation still does this.

If you want to be Ms Big tell your PA. Otherwise be the breath of fresh air that brings the organisation into the 2000s.

Exactly. If you want it, just ask. Only your own internalised sexism is stopping you.

And yes, her title is secretary

Which is rather outdated too.

Great, in that case perhaps you could use your power to change her title as this seems a hold over in more hierarchical/patriarchal organisations?

Unless the role is Secretary of State or Company Secretary or similar, which are very specific roles - I would say this change is just as important and she has much less agency than you in the company. My last role was as a Secretary to a powerful man and I was treated very differently to when I was an Assistant Company Secretary. Was part of that systemic? Probably but the title doesn't help!

OP, like you I'm not keen on the formal, title + surname mode of address and thought that had practically died out by now anyway.

But it's very right to say that if senior male management are addressed in this way there should not be an exception made for the only female in that role. This is especially the case where the management structure is top-heavy and already weighted in favour of males.

A male would likely send a two-line email to make this request and once he'd hit send would likely not waste a further moment worrying about it. I doubt he would give a stuff whether the recipient thought ill of him for sending it or not.

Yes, it is ingrained, casual sexism: likely not even consciously done as these attitudes have been dripfed into females from birth. But it's bias, unconscious or otherwise. Another example is that Sir/Miss distinction children have all the way through school: note the large disparity in status here. The Americans have it right with the Sir/Ma'am thing which is at least equal.

I've noted this with our use of language - proven by linguistic theorists to vary between men and women - and the ways in which a good number of female academics are attempting to modify this, especially in their email communication. Gone are the apologies, the constant pleases and thank yous (although I have mixed views on this), the hedging, the hesitancy in which we make our requests. I'm attempting this too, and it's interesting. Breaking the habit is HARD, as we're effectively going against a lifetime's conditioning. And there is pushback. Women are criticised for 'bossy' behaviour whilst men are considered 'assertive'. It's necessary to develop a thick skin so as not to care.

In sum, no, women are not our own worst enemies. We have a huge amount of social conditioning, going back all our lives and before that, to unpick. The ones who do piss me off are those who cosy up to The Patriarchy , not only in obeying its conventions but in slating other women who don't. I'm unsure as to exactly why, but if they think The Patriarchy is going to cut them any slack for their compliance, they might want to think again.

There are a lot of those on this site.

i really wouldnt care tbh

This is so absurd it's actually funny. I don't call anyone at work by their surname, not even the CEO of this massive company. I'm a manager and I would cringe if someone called me Ms QuirkyTurtle. My dad always used to say 'if I wanted people to call you Ms QuirkyTurtle, I wouldn't have given you a first name' and I agree with that.

I 100% agree with the title of this post. Not specifically in business, but in my personal life. As a stepmother for example, the only hate I ever get is from other women.

I'm unsure what the issue is here. Just tell her - politely and with respect - that you would like her to address you as Ms X in future. If she doesn't know then she will continue doing it.

It sounds like you aren't able (or maybe willing?) to be assertive here. If you want equality then the first step is to set standards/boundaries and be specific about what you want. By assuming you will be seen as "difficult" you are cutting yourself off before you even get doing. Also so what you if you "difficult"?

You can be extremely polite and courteous and still get the message across. Describe what you have noticed, express how it made you feel and ask her to change her behaviour. You can also self-disclose a bit (e.g. "I am new into this post and really want to make a good impression and be seen as a leader. I am a little anxious that this may make me seem as junior and it'd be great if we could work together so I can be the best leader I can for you!")

I do find that it tends to be women that find other powerful women to be "difficult". From my experience in a very female heavy working environment, the majority of the drama and issues relate to women back stabbing each other. Of course guys can - and do - go behind your back though I have found most of the time they will tell you straight out if they think you are an awkward pain in the arse.

My advice, call it out GENTLY. Validate that she likely didn't intend to do this (don't blame or attribute motive) and then reinforce how you want to be supportive for her. I suspect you will get more respect that way.

Good luck.

My advice, call it out GENTLY. Validate that she likely didn't intend to do this (don't blame or attribute motive) and then reinforce how you want to be supportive for her. I suspect you will get more respect that way.

I disagree. Brevity is key - the less you apologise and explain, the less what you say is likely to be misconstrued. People generally respect directness.

A two sentence message, asking that you also would like to be addressed in formal situations, emails etc where other managers (no need to mention that they are men) are referred to by TITLE NAME.

In other circumstances I'm happy for you to call me Cherry.

Job done. Don't behave as though you're afraid of causing offence, and you probably won't. Even if you do, they'll get over it. What's the worst that can happen?

Whilst there are some women who do not help with equality, the overwheming majority are men.

@MorningStarling

On the wider point, yes women are their worst enemies for equality. Most women don't seem to grasp the fact that we could get equality almost overnight if that's what we actually wanted. Most men could be won over if they thought we wanted equality. That's why feminists find their progress so slow, women's rights is seen as feminism, get feminism is not about equality. You get equality through seeing people as equal.

Oh shit if only I had known this The reason women earn less and are treated less favourably is that we just aren’t trying hard enough and don’t want equality enough. Well done there - you just fixed sexism in the workplace

I think I was also disappointed that the secretary - who seems hyper efficient, friendly and helpful - couldn't see the glaring inconsistency in her email.

I think once you get to know each other it might be better. If you are on her side and supportive, she'll probably support you better.

This is so absurd it's actually funny. I don't call anyone at work by their surname, not even the CEO of this massive company. I'm a manager and I would cringe if someone called me Ms QuirkyTurtle.

This is not helpful. There are clearly several firms (i can imagine the big 4, big legal etc etc) who set store by this. Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean they have to bend to your wishes if you start working there and get the key to the exec rest room.

Like it or not, some firms operate this way. The way to get more women in the C suites of this world, we have to play the game. And when we have enough in a company, maybe things can be changed.
It does women in higher positions to always be called Firstname when all the men are Mr Surname. It definitely holds women back.

I'm in a country with a formal and informal "you" in the language. And while most of my company uses informal + firstname, it is never ever wrong to address a higher up as formal + Mr/Ms Surname. If they want they can ask you to be less formal, but it is social convention that this comes from the senior person. And it is the same in the UK with Mr Surname or Firstname.

the best way to get through the glass ceiling isn't to smash it with your head. It is to use your nailfile/screwdriver (I keep one in my handbag) and scratch away until you get through. THEN you can smash it beneath you if you want.

You have probably been referred to by the senior men by first name to the secretary, and she is following suit. Its highly unlikely she will have made a decision herself to drop your formal title if that is how she has heard you referred to by the seniors. Your argument is with the men, not with another woman. And I hope you intend to give this woman due credit with the seniors for the 'fringe' things you want her to do to make you more successful. Enough men succeed on the backs of women going the extra mile without us doing it to each other

This is not helpful. There are clearly several firms (i can imagine the big 4, big legal etc etc) who set store by this. Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean they have to bend to your wishes if you start working there and get the key to the exec rest room.

Eh, agree to disagree. I worked for a Big 4 company and it was certainly not the norm to call Directors/VPs whatever by their surnames.

jeez it was only an example - I have no idea what the big 4 do.