Booking a taxi for 14yo daughter to get home from a club

[JakeDad]

I thought this was really simple and obvious but was surprised at the reactions, including from my daughter.

She's comfortable getting trains and buses on her own when needed, which happens regularly being in a rural setting, but the car is in for repair and I cannot get her home from a club later when the buses have stopped running at 6pm.

So I was going to book a taxi like I sometimes do for her older brother and with a trusted firm I've used for years.

But she said she was scared and decided to miss the club entirely.

Am I being unreasonable and am way off base with the expectations of an otherwise independent, smart, capable teen?

@givemepickles I think there's a big crossover in being someone who uses an internet forum to discuss things and being an over thinker / very anxious. But I agree with you, I find the number of adult women who won't take a generally safe form of transport - and who apparently can't tell the driver that they don't feel like chatting - absolutely bonkers. I'm so glad I wasn't raised to be so afraid of the world around me.

Have read all your updates now OP. Good result!

One thing I notice, is that whenever you've engaged with someone talking about how some men talk to teenage girls in a way that makes them feel uncomfortable, you've turned that conversation back to yourself. 'I used to say naively insensitive things, I was told, learnt, so now I don't.' Ok, that's good but that's you, an apparently pleasant, thoughtful, considerate father of a daughter. Not all men are like that. Some, quite a few actually, are creeps and sleazes.

So yes, many people, like your younger self, might cross a line inadvertently, tactlessly. Many others do so quite deliberately, because they enjoy their power and the girl or woman's discomfort. I don't suppose you've ever engaged in cat-calling for example but some men do.

I just wanted to reflect that back to you - that when we talk about the way many men talk to teenage girls, we're not talking about you. You can't 'logic those bad men away' by telling us that you learnt from your early experiences (and all they need is to be told). TLDR: her experience with other men is not about you.

(Which is scary, because you cannot experience it for her, you will never know about all of it, because a lot of it is too subtle and insidious to identify as 'a bad incident I need to discuss today' and you cannot control it).

[quote LittleGwyneth]@givemepickles I think there's a big crossover in being someone who uses an internet forum to discuss things and being an over thinker / very anxious. But I agree with you, I find the number of adult women who won't take a generally safe form of transport - and who apparently can't tell the driver that they don't feel like chatting - absolutely bonkers. I'm so glad I wasn't raised to be so afraid of the world around me.[/quote]
It's not about being "afraid of the world around you", though. It's about basic risk assessment.

Is a taxi likely to be safe? Yes, it probably is - but for me, the level of discomfort I would feel isn't worth the convenience of the taxi. I would rather walk, drive (and not drink), get a lift or stay home and feel comfortable.

And my choice to do that is just as valid as your choice to take the taxi.

@Comefromaway

Turn it around, Am I lying, is my dd lying when she was groped on a train and couldn't get away.

This is my point. Women have been sexually assaulted on trains and men physically attacked while the passengers (whom many of the posters on here seem to see as some sort of added protection) have either not been aware or turned away not wanting to get involved for fear of being attacked too. The argument about leaving the train early if feeling threatened isn't good advice - leaving the train then left alone on a dark platform with the potential to being followed off the train. What happens if all the passengers get off the train and you're alone when a drunk man/men get on? There are many more variables that can causes you harm travelling by public transport then in a taxi. I would take a taxi every time.

@lottiegarbanzo

Have read all your updates now OP. Good result!

One thing I notice, is that whenever you've engaged with someone talking about how some men talk to teenage girls in a way that makes them feel uncomfortable, you've turned that conversation back to yourself. 'I used to say naively insensitive things, I was told, learnt, so now I don't.' Ok, that's good but that's you, an apparently pleasant, thoughtful, considerate father of a daughter. Not all men are like that. Some, quite a few actually, are creeps and sleazes.

So yes, many people, like your younger self, might cross a line inadvertently, tactlessly. Many others do so quite deliberately, because they enjoy their power and the girl or woman's discomfort. I don't suppose you've ever engaged in cat-calling for example but some men do.

I just wanted to reflect that back to you - that when we talk about the way many men talk to teenage girls, we're not talking about you. You can't 'logic those bad men away' by telling us that you learnt from your early experiences (and all they need is to be told). TLDR: her experience with other men is not about you.

(Which is scary, because you cannot experience it for her, you will never know about all of it, because a lot of it is too subtle and insidious to identify as 'a bad incident I need to discuss today' and you cannot control it).

Oh yes indeed -- my brief snippets on here don't present a very full picture, I guess, plus I'm not always great at summarising well. The points I made about my own history were just to address an issue that I was worried meant things might not get said. I feel it's worth flagging things up, and the more men and women who speak up, the more it shifts what "normal" is. I live in hope.

In one of them, I did mention that I realised I was likely not representative. Also when discussing things with my daughter, there's no end of debate about the awfulness of men in the general sense, despite good experiences of men she may have encountered. I think she has a good handle on the widespread problems whilst also being able to enjoy the good parts of the world too. It's getting that balance of making the most of things with an enthusiasm whilst also knowing the data, the risks, trusting one's instincts, and so forth.

Amusingly enough, now with a free evening, she'd made plans with a friend at school, got herself a trip out to eat, and arranged a lift home later... so I will have to wait to catch her up on all the mumsnet debate today!

Great that you found a solution- it's made me think about how my teen girls could also ask for a female taxi driver, or a DBS checked/council driver, these are great ideas!

I think the point is women can be harassed or made to feel self-conscious on trains, on buses, waiting at bus stops/trains, on the Tube, in taxis or walking down the road at night or even in the daytime. Both my girls have been shouted at in public by males just walking along or waiting for a bus.

There isn't a 'safe' method of transport for women and a recent report showed these fears stop women fully going out in London at night.

Given that, some of the ideas on here are helpful!

[quote LittleGwyneth]@Triffid1 Did it not occur to you to put headphones in? Or ask for the radio on? Or to say you were tired and didn't feel like talking? Or that you needed to get on with a work email?

Avoiding a useful form of transport because you think the person driving might be sexist feels like an enormous overreaction. This is why I'm so concerned about raising resilient children.[/quote]
Sexism and Racism make me really uncomfortable even now as a grown woman with teenage kids. When I was 16 I had a Saturday job in a shop and made friends with 17 and 18yr olds from different 6th forms went to a few parties and occasionally shared a taxi home I hated being dropped off last as inevitably the middle aged usually white man would start to hit on me.
Lots of them mentioned they liked black girls or they had never dated a black girl it was so creepy and incredibly intimidating, I looked around 12-13 it didn't seem to bother them in the slightest. I completely understand your daughter not wanting to get a taxi alone.

@PizzaPizza56

I'm in my 30s, female and in the UK and I've never got in a taxi by myself, feels like far too vulnerable a situation and too hard to get myself out of if I felt unsafe. No problem with trains, buses etc by myself as it's more public.

This is quite precious. Never got in a taxi alone?