To ask you to explain non binary to me (genuine question)

[crochetmonkey74]

I have a new non binary person on my team at work (I am a manager)
They present as female-very much so in dress and grooming, they have a very feminine name too ,they have told me that they are heterosexual and live with their partner. However they want to be known as 'they' and the pronoun 'MX'
I am happily doing all this, I believe everyone should be comfortable and I will address people how they wish to be addressed.
I'm a teacher so my new member of the team is continually being misgendered by the students (due to the incongruity of appearance and pronoun) we have other non binary more androgynous looking staff who are not misgendered.
My new staff member is a nice person but they are very aware of correcting people, and have already complained (not about me)
I'm keen to do this right and not offend but also despite trying to read around the issue, I cant find much about non binary females who present in a feminine aspect.
This is not a bait thread or a stealth moan. It is a genuine question. Anyone got any experience with this?

@HalfShrunkMoreToGo

I might be misunderstanding here but the issue isn't that this person is non-binary, it's that they teach kids and the kids are saying 'Miss' or 'she said to do what's on the board'. The teacher is then getting upset that the kids didn't say 'MX' or 'They said to do what's on the board' and has raised a complaint.

The problem here is that a load of kids who have been very accustomed to saying Miss or Sir are going to get it wrong sometimes when a new concept is introduced.

The idea that a teacher wouldn't understand this and would raise a complaint about it is somewhat ridiculous. They should be capable of kindly but firmly reminding the child themselves of the language they should be using.

As above, I think introducing the use of the word 'teacher' instead of They or Mx may be a suitable alternative, as long as the teacher agrees.

Yes, always say ‘teacher Betty said to do what’s on the board’ and always do it.

And every time teach Betty tells the class to do as ‘she’ said, referring to teacher Mary, tell her off. Tell her she is to refer to you as teacher Mary not as her. Each and every time.

See how she likes it. Make her do the work.

This individual may be an attention-seeking whinyarse, of course. But, overall, it's no different to remembering someone's title or the preferred version of their name - calling a religious official 'Reverend/Pastor/Father' depending on specific sect, for instance - or using 'title/surname' rather than given name when a person has said that they don't like being addressed by their given name by anyone but family and friends.

@x2boys

Do we really need , someone like this teaching ,young impressionable teens ,they ,need to get over themself,and accept they are not that special.

Students wouldn't have a clue that this person wants to be known as they/them looking at face value. They will be thinking if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

And it can be attention seeking if said new member kicks off if someone refers to them as 'she' either accidentally or because they don't know in the first place. @ThreeFeetTall made some great points.

I had a student who wanted to identify as a mermaid. Wrap your head around that one - I am just beginning to ...

middle aged women in jobs above them are triggering to them

The non binary stuff aside this is a massive red flag if you are a middle aged woman who happens to be the manger of this person.

I agree.

Maybe start with asking them to hang a sign around their neck / have a sticker / name plate describing how "MX" is pronounced and using the little accents, descriptive letters, phonics etc? MX sounds like it should be pronounced 'mex'. So do they get called 'MX' (hear Mex) where other binary males are referred to as 'Sir' or females as 'Miss'?
Maybe they need to explain clearly what they want to hear rather than complain about people getting it wrong?

Oh and when I got it wrong and called a child their 'old' name by mistake, a meeting was called with the child and parents (at the parents request).

They said middle aged women in jobs above them are triggering to them

What happens when the pupils start saying they can't do homework set by a nonbinary teacher as they find it triggering?

@babyjellyfish

I would want them to make an effort to remember out of respect for me, but provided I didn't think they were deliberately calling me "he" to upset me or prove a point, it wouldn't be reasonable of me to make a scene every time someone got it "wrong".

Sorry where has OP said this person makes a scene everytime someone gets it wrong. That's your own stereotyping talking.

Take a look at the responses of this thread...is it that hard to imagine that they have encountered vicious, nasty people that refuse to respect their pronouns leading to them have to make a complaint. Really.

Jesus. Being "non-binary" is not a protected characteristic so I wouldn't be pandering to ANY of this nonsense. You are not responsible for their feelings about being "misgendered" by others.

How old are the students who are supposedly causing such offence to this poor "they/them"?

Sorry where has OP said this person makes a scene everytime someone gets it wrong.

They have implied exactly that, the person even jumped in when they were mistaken to correct another staff member.

@Wreath21

This individual may be an attention-seeking whinyarse, of course. But, overall, it's no different to remembering someone's title or the preferred version of their name - calling a religious official 'Reverend/Pastor/Father' depending on specific sect, for instance - or using 'title/surname' rather than given name when a person has said that they don't like being addressed by their given name by anyone but family and friends.

It’s not the same at all.

It’s easy to call someone what they like to their fact. Father Bob, Miss Robins.

It isn’t a problem to refer to Bob as Bob and not Father Bob when Bob isn’t there. Bob isn’t there so it’s not his business if we call him Bob. We might even call him Bobby. Or Billy Bob. Or That Right Wanker Bob. Or Lovely Bob. If you want to be called Lovely Bob the way to achieve that is to be lovely. And not act like a right wanker.

@LightfoldEngines

Middle aged women in roles above them trigger them?

🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩

My Narc alert is going off.

Saying this to you, her female manager in her 40s, is about as subtle as getting a tattoo saying "I'm going to be a massive pain in the arse".

She can't have had that many previous jobs, is there any way you can speak to her previous manager "to find out how they helped the kids to get things right" and actually pump them for info.

Is this person on a probationary period of employment?
Unless they are absolutely shit hot at teaching and worth keeping above all the trouble that early indications suggest...
The gender thing is by the by. This person is going to be extremely hard to work with. They have already set out their stall as being unwilling to work with you or colleagues to make reasonable adjustments to their requests. Telling you to educate yourself and that your very presence is triggering would be ringing alarm bells very loudly to me.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Sorry where has OP said this person makes a scene everytime someone gets it wrong.

They have implied exactly that, the person even jumped in when they were mistaken to correct another staff member.

Correcting people is not "making a scene". Oh lord.

If someone called you the complete wrong name and you corrected them that's now making a scene is it.

"Hello Emma how are you doing?" "I'm good, actually my name is Emily not Emma"

WHAT A NARCISSIST MAKING A SCENE LIKE THAT

@ImJustMadAboutSaffron
Please tell me you got mermaid sit on a rock in the corner of the room. Maybe next to a bucket of water. Or a pond.

I'd say they don't want to feel restricted by male or female stereotypes and are expressing that in a modern way. Not much you need to do except try your best to remember the pronouns etc.

But they're not expressing anything; they are asking everyone else to change what they would normally say!

isn’t a problem to refer to Bob as Bob and not Father Bob when Bob isn’t there. Bob isn’t there so it’s not his business if we call him Bob. We might even call him Bobby. Or Billy Bob. Or That Right Wanker Bob. Or Lovely Bob. If you want to be called Lovely Bob the way to achieve that is to be lovely. And not act like a right wanker.

Great post

Found a youtube video of non binary people explaining their experiences. Its got 1m views and lots of upvotes so probably an okay place to start.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=kVe8wpmH_lU

I think if you just use their preferred pronouns and help others use their preferred pronouns though that's all you can really do. :)

@WorriedMumsDontSleep

students are just continually being corrected (not necessarily a problem) but they feel very guilty and some of our kids really worry about being seen as intlolerant or upsetting

Have you looked at the teaching standards I posted yet. Can you see the problem now?

yes I am well aware of the teaching standards but this is a more nebulous issue I think

Not insurmountable, but probably not solved by them

no, they complained about another member of staff

A member of staff you line manage?

Would it be appropriate for you to tell them to take it up with that member of staff directly?

They also corrected a member of my team in front of a class but wrongly (he was talking about me when he said Miss but they assumed it was them and corrected him) so he was unhappy

I would say to "them" that whilst you understand that titles and pronouns are important you them, it is not appropriate for them to correct members of staff in front of the children and if this happens again they should raise it with the member of staff concerned privately after the lesson.

and the students are just continually being corrected (not necessarily a problem) but they feel very guilty and some of our kids really worry about being seen as intlolerant or upsetting

Again, I would be tempted to raise this with them. Explain that the children are trying their best and it's great that they are learning to be tolerant and respectful of people's identities.

However, the children are there to learn. They are primarily there to learn academic subjects such maths and English, not how to validate their teachers' gender identities, and this is what the focus should be on.

When children make mistakes in maths and English, their mistakes should be addressed in a way that supports them to learn, not by making them feel bad about themselves. If this teacher is making children feel bad for getting their title or pronouns wrong, they are putting their own personal identity above their responsibility towards the children.

It's also worth noting that all teachers, regardless of their sex or gender identity, will experience disrespectful behaviour from children. It is part and parcel of being a teacher. I remember kids at school shouting at teachers, calling them names, and even in one memorable science lesson, throwing the pigs' kidneys we were supposed to be dissecting. I also once saw another student stab a teacher's hand with a biro.

If they can't cope with a child forgetting to call them Mx, they are never going to last in teaching.

They need to develop a thicker skin.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Sorry where has OP said this person makes a scene everytime someone gets it wrong.

They have implied exactly that, the person even jumped in when they were mistaken to correct another staff member.

Worse. Made a complaint about another member of staff. And if I've understood correctly, completely unfounded.

That they have told you that ' middle aged women in jobs above them are triggering to them ' they have effectively attempted to silence you.

With that out there they expect you to constantly be on guard and make exceptions for their behaviour because they have told you they are triggered and you are receiving therapy for it.

This is just another way they are trying to control your own work environment. You will be using considerable effort to make sure that they are comfortable, and that in effect centres them in your interactions with them. Even when it should be about you or something else.

God I hate this response: "I did start to ask , but they said they felt it was triggering to explain it but there was lots of stuff on the internet for me to find. But I genuinely have looked and I cannot find much at all."

If people want to vaguely point you to the internet (where EVERYTHING resides) the very least they can do is to give you a link to an article they feel accurately represents their views or situation. If they're not willing to do that, they have to put up with people not understanding their own vague concept of what they are and what they represent because they refuse to make it clear.