To ask you to explain non binary to me (genuine question)

[crochetmonkey74]

I have a new non binary person on my team at work (I am a manager)
They present as female-very much so in dress and grooming, they have a very feminine name too ,they have told me that they are heterosexual and live with their partner. However they want to be known as 'they' and the pronoun 'MX'
I am happily doing all this, I believe everyone should be comfortable and I will address people how they wish to be addressed.
I'm a teacher so my new member of the team is continually being misgendered by the students (due to the incongruity of appearance and pronoun) we have other non binary more androgynous looking staff who are not misgendered.
My new staff member is a nice person but they are very aware of correcting people, and have already complained (not about me)
I'm keen to do this right and not offend but also despite trying to read around the issue, I cant find much about non binary females who present in a feminine aspect.
This is not a bait thread or a stealth moan. It is a genuine question. Anyone got any experience with this?

@PiesNotGuys

A binary consists of two things, black/white, yes/no, male/female. Humans are part of a binary and are male or female.

There is no third possibility or classification because if there were, there would be no binary to be set apart from. A binary by definition is only two options. If there is a third, it becomes a ternary.

So non-binary, as a term, is nonsense, however anyone feels about themselves, and I wish everyone happiness in their own skin.

Those things aren't really binary either though.

Black/white are not the only shades of grey if you're talking about colour. Neither are they the only options if you're talking about race. You could have white/non-white or white/POC as a binary, maybe, but even then there was the issue people had with "BAME" because it lumped people of different cultures together.

Whether something is a straightforward yes/no isn't always clear cut either. In an argument it's rarely someone is 100% right and the other person 100% wrong. There's usually some middle ground.

Non-binary is used because the people who espouse it believe that gender isn't a binary choice of male/female.

@crochetmonkey74

They don’t want to be tied down to a gender, is how I read it. As they’ve mentioned past trauma, there could also be something that’s happened to them that has made them reject the idea of being a woman

Yes, I am rather nervous as they said middle aged women in jobs above them are triggering to them and they have been a bit grumbly about various things so I am treading carefully

now this is hilarious!

middle aged women in jobs above them are triggering to them

what the actual fuck?

'Yes, I am rather nervous as they said middle aged women in jobs above them are triggering to them and they have been a bit grumbly about various things so I am treading carefully'

OP. This is a sign that they are not a 'nice' person. I am sure you are coming to that realisation.

@crochetmonkey74

^^Yes, I am rather nervous as they said middle aged women in jobs above them are triggering to them

Say what now??

@Antsgomarching

Does she understand that people are referring to her biological sex rather than her internal feelings about her gender identity. I don’t have one of those (gender identity that is) so no idea if it causes a lot of upset but this sounds really annoying. I would be quite wary about this. I would also keep documentation about your convos and try to keep them in a formal setting. Perhaps send her quick email saying “as per out conversation…” I probably sound paranoid but she sounds fragile and likely to feel people are bullying her etc if they don’t behave in the way she wants.

You have the patience of a saint and are clearly trying your best to be accommodating of her. I would go with PP suggestion of coaching questions and keep her at arms length.

This is good advice. I'd be distancing myself from this person. They'll create a shitstorm. One way or another. Do not get caught up in it.

@Helleofabore

Because if you are referenced as a "he" you just inherently know that is not right and will feel annoyed everyone is calling you by something you're not.

If you are a person who feels annoyed being called a 'he' in error, you probably do need to work out why this annoys you. Having been in that situation, it is actually possible to not be annoyed with it.

You know I'm not talking about a one off mistake

Completely different scenarios

There are real people struggling in the world, and this individual has the nerve to force everyone to pander to their ego. I'm sorry you have to endure this. Everyone is offended by something in the world, it's called living. Tell the individual to get a grip.

Black/white are not the only shades of grey if you're talking about colour.

Black/white aren't shades of grey at all. HTH.

@Helleofabore

'Yes, I am rather nervous as they said middle aged women in jobs above them are triggering to them and they have been a bit grumbly about various things so I am treading carefully'

OP. This is a sign that they are not a 'nice' person. I am sure you are coming to that realisation.

Yes, I think this person is actively causing problems in the workplace and needs to be dealt with. It won't be easy, but if you don't confront the situation and draw some boundaries to protect staff and pupils you risk everyone else's mental health suffering.

My DD is like this. Mainly presents as feminine (no less so than me really) but is n:b - kept v feminine name too and salutation.
I don’t understand it really, I Just have to accept it for what it is at this point in time.
I’ve come across n/b in the workplace, but not a person I directly liaise with much.
Maybe re the students there can be more education around n/b saying that not everyone who identifies as non-binary will dress in an androgynous manner, but they do want to be referred to as Mx/they and that’s important to the person,
Funnily I asked my DD if they wanted to be called ‘Ms’ as was filling out a form for an upcoming holiday and they said ‘Why, I’m not divorced!’ So Miss it was…(no mention of and and that’s wasn’t an option).

@Xiaoxiong

middle aged women in jobs above them are triggering to them

This is raising all kinds of red flags to me. How are they going to respond if their manager is a middle aged woman, and needs to give them feedback if they're under-performing?

If you're female, and god forbid a middle aged one, I'd be staying far, far away from this teacher if I were you OP.

In her last job, my DD had to take part in group Teams meetings with large numbers of recent graduates. Many introduced themselves with details of various degrees of anxiety about speaking in public before muting their mics and playing no part in proceedings. It's lovely that people can get paid while bullying others into respecting their comfort zones, but I worry that they will always lack resilience to deal with the unexpected events that seem to occur in life.

@WhatEvenHappened44

The hatred on this post is disgusting, but no surprise coming from Mumsnet.

OP, if you're a woman, imagine everyone in this world referring to you as he or him and how much that would drain you and make you feel the need to correct them. Because if you are referenced as a "he" you just inherently know that is not right and will feel annoyed everyone is calling you by something you're not. That's how non binary people who go by "they" feel when being referred to as she or him.

I think pretty much all of us were taught from a very young age that boys have willies and girls don't, men are grown up boys and women are grown up girls, and we use "he" for boys and men and "she" for girls and women.

I am a woman (and former girl) without a willy. If everyone referred to me as "he", whilst referring to other people without willies as "she" and other people with willies as "he", I wouldn't understand why people weren't applying the same rules to me as they apply to everyone else.

If I were a man (and former boy) with a willy, and everyone referred to me as "he" but I felt that didn't reflect my identity and I wanted them to refer to me as "she", I would have to understand that I was asking people to reverse the usual rules of English grammar and do the opposite of what they have been taught to do since they were very young children. I would want them to make an effort to remember out of respect for me, but provided I didn't think they were deliberately calling me "he" to upset me or prove a point, it wouldn't be reasonable of me to make a scene every time someone got it "wrong".

Get the children to call both if you ‘teacher’. Then you can be ‘teacher Mary’ and ‘teacher Betty’ and the poor kids won’t be treading on eggshells. Problem solved.

When she whinges about being referred to as ‘she’, tell her to stop earwigging on other people’s conversations.

And tell her you’re triggered by young non-binary females complaining about being misgendered and that while you are working on yourself, she needs to support you in your journey and not mention it to you when she is misgendered and instead discuss it with the head teacher each time.

and the students are just continually being corrected (not necessarily a problem) but they feel very guilty and some of our kids really worry about being seen as intlolerant or upsetting

I am at a loss to understand how you can write that and still be seeking advice on how to indulge this individuals narcissism.

This person is female, a woman. They clearly have no dysphoria or similar or they would be androgynous.
Why should children be gaslighted like this for the whims of a narcissistic attention seeker?
It’s actually disgusting that schools are allowing this regressive bull shit.

I would suggest that this person gets a grip and join the local am dram society to satisfy their craving for attention.

At school this person should be concentrating on the well being of the children rather than using the kids to satisfy their own ideology.

People can think what they like but equally they can’t insist everyone else should compromise their own thoughts. Freedom goes both ways. Or are we educating children to always adjust their thoughts and beliefs for everyone else.

When I grew up we were trying to get rid of gender stereotypes - all this diversity is doing nothing but reinforcing stereo types. It’s preventing kids from realising their true uniqueness by insisting that they slot themselves into a box.

@Helleofabore

'Yes, I am rather nervous as they said middle aged women in jobs above them are triggering to them and they have been a bit grumbly about various things so I am treading carefully'

OP. This is a sign that they are not a 'nice' person. I am sure you are coming to that realisation.

They are self centred and ageist. Its not triggering. They just don't like being reminded of reality. If reality offends them, and you are walking on eggshells as a result this is actually an abusive power dynamic. You are feeling fear. Thats not healthy nor is it right. Its certainly not inclusive or open minded.

Keep in mind that respect should be earned not given merely because of identity and that it should be mutual. If it is not, then there is an inherent problem.

Equality is based on the concept that we should be treated fairly, with respect and dignity. Crucially this is not a one way process.

[quote ownvolition]@crochetmonkey74

^^Yes, I am rather nervous as they said middle aged women in jobs above them are triggering to them

Say what now??[/quote]
Ok, that is weird!!
I’m ok w non-binary if that’s what floats your boat, but as a middle-aged woman that’s highly offensive!!

It’s ok to call her ‘she/her’ here. She’ll never know.

I had to google how Mx is pronounced, just sounds like a nightmare in a school asking kids not to call her miss when since the day dot kids are taught to address teachers miss/mrs if female or Mr if male. The kids she doesn't teach around school will see a female and address her correctly as miss, maybe you need to email the entire school and parents and say she isn't a she? Then no one can say they didn't know? You can't get into trouble for misgendering someone when it isn't obvious what they are calling themselves. I always thought gender was about how you dressed, like I can't just act female in every way possible and then say "but call me mr". Or maybe you can in this mad world we live in....

I might be misunderstanding here but the issue isn't that this person is non-binary, it's that they teach kids and the kids are saying 'Miss' or 'she said to do what's on the board'. The teacher is then getting upset that the kids didn't say 'MX' or 'They said to do what's on the board' and has raised a complaint.

The problem here is that a load of kids who have been very accustomed to saying Miss or Sir are going to get it wrong sometimes when a new concept is introduced.

The idea that a teacher wouldn't understand this and would raise a complaint about it is somewhat ridiculous. They should be capable of kindly but firmly reminding the child themselves of the language they should be using.

As above, I think introducing the use of the word 'teacher' instead of They or Mx may be a suitable alternative, as long as the teacher agrees.

Middle aged women in roles above them trigger them?

🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩

My Narc alert is going off.

The hatred on this post is disgusting, but no surprise coming from Mumsnet.

No "hatred" just eye rolling, tbh.

@Smileyaxolotl1

This person is female, a woman. They clearly have no dysphoria or similar or they would be androgynous. Why should children be gaslighted like this for the whims of a narcissistic attention seeker? It’s actually disgusting that schools are allowing this regressive bull shit.

Please don't blame the schools, they have no choice in the matter at all. We have children as young as 9/10 coming in presenting differently on a Monday morning and we now have to call them by their new name. Parents and our policies insist on it. It's confusing for children (and staff to be honest, not because we're idiots, just that going from knowing and calling a child Olivia on a Friday and then to have to call them Kayden on the Monday afterwards can be a lot to take in).

middle aged women in jobs above them are triggering to them

The non binary stuff aside this is a massive red flag if you are a middle aged woman who happens to be the manger of this person.

They are allowed to be both ageist and sexist towards you and you must respect their pronouns.

Absolute nightmare, this person will be unmanageable, everything will be put down to intolerance of their gender identity, even if there are legitimate management concerns.