To ask you to explain non binary to me (genuine question)

[crochetmonkey74]

I have a new non binary person on my team at work (I am a manager)
They present as female-very much so in dress and grooming, they have a very feminine name too ,they have told me that they are heterosexual and live with their partner. However they want to be known as 'they' and the pronoun 'MX'
I am happily doing all this, I believe everyone should be comfortable and I will address people how they wish to be addressed.
I'm a teacher so my new member of the team is continually being misgendered by the students (due to the incongruity of appearance and pronoun) we have other non binary more androgynous looking staff who are not misgendered.
My new staff member is a nice person but they are very aware of correcting people, and have already complained (not about me)
I'm keen to do this right and not offend but also despite trying to read around the issue, I cant find much about non binary females who present in a feminine aspect.
This is not a bait thread or a stealth moan. It is a genuine question. Anyone got any experience with this?

Now I am confused. I was born female and now I'm an adult I'm a woman. Take for example, India Willoughby. She was born a boy but is now a woman. We're both women. Seems simple to me, even if only one of us menstruates. But then I guess Helen Mirren doesn't, and she's a woman too ......

What do you think a woman is?

ImJustMadAboutSaffron can I ask, what is the essential quality you share with India Willoughby, and me, and Helen Mirren, and every woman on the planet, and every male person who “identifies as a woman”, that you don’t share with any men (who “identify as men”) on the planet?

What is the defining characteristic of a woman, in your view?

Sorry I meant to comment on this:

I am in a book discussion group and commented on someone's "review" of an anthology of stories. They said they refused to read it because one of the stories was written by an author who is a "TERF". I questioned why they felt they could review this, when they hadn't read the book, and reminded them it was a book review forum.

They posted the same "review" again and I commented on this, and again reminded them it was not a political forum.

I was told that "This is the third or fourth time you've commented on this review. It's creepy and obsessive. You may want to work on your social skills." - I hadn't commented on the review three or four times.

I was told I was "not welcome here" and "my behaviour is unacceptable".

Massive, massive attention seekers attempting to use this sort of thing with impunity.

I imagine if you hadn't risen to it and given them attention they would have jumped on any post praising the "TERF's" story in a similar way, to make it all about them.

Oh baby i'd completely forgotten about India's (imaginary) cervix.

‘Yes, I am rather nervous as they said middle aged women in jobs above them are triggering to them wtf??? Imagine the hell that would break loose if you said that you were triggered by younger non binary women.‘

Exactly.

I think this teacher is going to be a menace to everyone else in the department. Looking for slights to correct.
I work with children and I am routinely called Miss, my name, mum, mummy, Dawn (colleagues name) etc.
In return I mix up Lila and Layla, Isla and Ayla, Luca and Lucas.
We forgive each other and carry on. Nothing happens.

But some people are neither XX nor XY

And they have a sex development disorder (which I specifically wasn't referencing in that quote as I made clear), and all of these can be categorised as male or female, and a DNA karyotyping can be carried out to discover this even where the sex of a person is truly ambiguous to the (puzzled?) observer. Which is extremely rare.

@lifeturnsonadime

Oh baby i'd completely forgotten about India's (imaginary) cervix.

Sadly I haven't been able to expunge the mental image of someone showing their cervix on live TV.

Is it misogynistic to speculate about someone having a bucket fanny if that person is male?

@WhatEvenHappened44

Here's a question. How do you all feel about a woman correcting someone when they are referred to as Mrs instead of Miss? Only pure attention seeking narcissists that do that yeah?

If I was somewhere as a customer (in the sort of place where you have an account and hence names get used), I may correct a mistake by a member of staff. As a customer I can do that.

Correcting a colleague in front of a customer? Or in this case a class? No, unprofessional. You do so quietly where the customer/class can't hear you.

This reminds me years ago before non binary when I was in high school many many years ago. We had a teacher who went on and on at us that we called her Ms (pronounced mz) not miss or mrs. She became a bit of a joke as honestly we didnt care and couldn't work out why she kept going on and on at us.

But how many? And how many of those are trans?

Not many (well under 1%). And I have no idea how many are trans.

I’ve just read the NHS page on DSD/intersex, and for most of the conditions it does seem to say that people with that condition are either a boy or a girl.

I’m still learning.

If I say, "I share neither a biological sex nor a gender identity with trans women so why should this identity that only they have be a reason for us to compete in the same sporting category?" there is no good response to that.

So they have to insist that we share this identity whether we like it or not.

Yes you share the same gender identity but your "cis privilege" is you not even realising ............

There are no human beings who are not either male or female. Disorders of sex development are not either a third sex, or no sex at all.

Does anyone remember the segment on Mark and Lard's radio show?

Is it a bird?
Is it a bloke?
How the hell should I know?
Sorry I spoke.

They'd never get away with that now.

I find it worrying about how often she is correcting pupils and how publically. I would have been mortified as a teen to be pulled up about this infront of my class or friends. It would have stopped me speaking in class or asking questions as my anxiety would have gone though the roof.

I do remember calling my first manager sir as we had been so conditioned on high school to use sir, miss or mrs.

Now I am confused. I was born female and now I'm an adult I'm a woman. Take for example, India Willoughby. She was born a boy but is now a woman. We're both women. Seems simple to me, even if only one of us menstruates. But then I guess Helen Mirren doesn't, and she's a woman too

See, this is the problem with this movement. It throws words around without meaning.
If you want to state India is a woman, you first need to come up with coherent definition of woman and then show how India fits that coherent definition.
If you want to make statements you need to be able to defend them.
We all need to able to do that. That's what accountability really means. Being able to defend your position in debate.

Yes, I am rather nervous as they said middle aged women in jobs above them are triggering to them

Imagine a 20 year old man saying this to his female line manager 🙈

I think pulling you up and then just directing you vaguely to "the internet" as it's triggering to explain is ridiculous. The individual should as a minimum signpost a website that they agree with. As there is no topic I can think of that would not have opposing information on different websites!

I was told that "This is the third or fourth time you've commented on this review. It's creepy and obsessive. You may want to work on your social skills." - I hadn't commented on the review three or four times.
@ImJustMadAboutSaffron I trust that you told them that they may want to work on their counting skills.

I think pulling you up and then just directing you vaguely to "the internet" as it's triggering to explain is ridiculous.

I wonder how they would feel about the OP asking MN, as she did "look at the internet" as suggested?

@x2boys

Do we really need , someone like this teaching ,young impressionable teens ,they ,need to get over themself,and accept they are not that special.

This

@AryaStarkWolf

If I say, "I share neither a biological sex nor a gender identity with trans women so why should this identity that only they have be a reason for us to compete in the same sporting category?" there is no good response to that.

So they have to insist that we share this identity whether we like it or not.

Yes you share the same gender identity but your "cis privilege" is you not even realising ............

Imagine a middle class white male having the audacity to tell a working class woman of colour that she is privileged.

Oh.

We don't have to imagine it.

Amazing scenes.

@nothingmorethanthis

Now I am confused. I was born female and now I'm an adult I'm a woman. Take for example, India Willoughby. She was born a boy but is now a woman. We're both women. Seems simple to me, even if only one of us menstruates. But then I guess Helen Mirren doesn't, and she's a woman too

See, this is the problem with this movement. It throws words around without meaning.
If you want to state India is a woman, you first need to come up with coherent definition of woman and then show how India fits that coherent definition.
If you want to make statements you need to be able to defend them.
We all need to able to do that. That's what accountability really means. Being able to defend your position in debate.

If I was to ask India if she is a woman, would she be offended? Probably yes. No wonder there is so much confusion.

@DdraigGoch

I was told that "This is the third or fourth time you've commented on this review. It's creepy and obsessive. You may want to work on your social skills." - I hadn't commented on the review three or four times. *@ImJustMadAboutSaffron* I trust that you told them that they may want to work on their counting skills.

I did think about that, but instead I just blocked them.

If I was to ask India if she is a woman, would she be offended?

You can determine the answer to this question by watching Celebrity Big Brother on YouTube.

If I was to ask India if she is a woman, would she be offended? Probably yes. No wonder there is so much confusion.

She would probably offer to show you her non-existent cervix.

@RoaringtoLangClegintheDark

ImJustMadAboutSaffron can I ask, what is the essential quality you share with India Willoughby, and me, and Helen Mirren, and every woman on the planet, and every male person who “identifies as a woman”, that you don’t share with any men (who “identify as men”) on the planet?

What is the defining characteristic of a woman, in your view?

Lipstick?