To ask you to explain non binary to me (genuine question)

[crochetmonkey74]

I have a new non binary person on my team at work (I am a manager)
They present as female-very much so in dress and grooming, they have a very feminine name too ,they have told me that they are heterosexual and live with their partner. However they want to be known as 'they' and the pronoun 'MX'
I am happily doing all this, I believe everyone should be comfortable and I will address people how they wish to be addressed.
I'm a teacher so my new member of the team is continually being misgendered by the students (due to the incongruity of appearance and pronoun) we have other non binary more androgynous looking staff who are not misgendered.
My new staff member is a nice person but they are very aware of correcting people, and have already complained (not about me)
I'm keen to do this right and not offend but also despite trying to read around the issue, I cant find much about non binary females who present in a feminine aspect.
This is not a bait thread or a stealth moan. It is a genuine question. Anyone got any experience with this?

I’m very glad to hear you confirm that, as I thought you would.

In that case, you need to protect your students from the narcissistic control mechanisms being used by this teacher.

Your new colleague probably falls into this camp too, and in some respects is not to be blamed for having fallen for this ideology, because it is being indoctrinated into young people everywhere. No doubt the educational establishment you work in has also been subject to the usual “training” sessions and you, as I say, genuinely think you’re doing the right thing here.

But this will be having a negative impact on your students, and that has to be the point where you step in and question it (as indeed you have done by starting this thread, so kudos for that) and stop enabling it.

Yes, yep, yes.

Sidestepping the politics of non-binary I think you need to be really careful with this colleague. They are misunderstanding the teacher pupil dynamic, being highly critical of colleagues and also firing warning shots to their superiors

I also agree with this, she/they sounds really dangerous

I have just about RTFT, learned a few things and remain confused about a few others.

I want to comment on something I’ve seen stated twice, but not commented on, namely that there are only two biological sexes, male and female, and everyone is either one or the other. This is not true. A tiny proportion of people are biologically intersex, having chromosomes, hormones and/or genitalia which are ambiguous.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex

Not me, though. I’m female and heterosexual. I was also a “tomboy” (short hair, physical play, didn’t do pretty or girly), worked in engineering and don’t do makeup, hair, nails etc. I never felt that I wasn’t a girl/woman, or needed to label myself. Well, other than “feminist”, meaning that males and females (and intersex people) are all fully and authentically human, of equal value, and that sex should not define or limit my interests, education or work opportunities.

This person sounds like a really shit teacher. Make sure everything is recorded and above board as you may well need to dismiss them or perhaps more likely they will leave and cite constructive dismissal. Teaching is not a career for someone who requires other people to affirm their sense of self. Children and teenagers can be brutally honest (or simply just brutal) and you need to be secure in yourself to cope.

As someone who has worked with kids they will call you all sorts, Miss, Mrs X, Mum etc

As someone working with young people you need to pick your battles. Continually correcting what they call you is not one of those battles (unless being deliberately rude / disrespectful and even then it's often worth letting it slide).

Additionally in this case of course the young people will get it wrong - they are looking at an obviously female individual but being asked to remember that they can't be referred to as such. It's the same as saying "in this classroom we refer to red as blue".

‘ Yes, I am rather nervous as they said middle aged women in jobs above them are triggering to them ‘

Well, that’s handy. What if you are ‘triggered’ by younger people who are ageist sexist attention seekers?

I’m glad you recorded and reported this comment. I think it may turn out to be very important. I suspect this person’s previous line manager has hung the flags out.

@DomesticatedZombie

twitter.com/libsoftiktok/status/1492925757898702848

Here's an adult calling themself 'trans kid' when upset by mispronouning.

They is very upset by the mistakes. I don't really know how these people are actually able to function.

Apologies for the mangled grammar, I am trying to correctly pronoun, and guessing it's 'they'.

That's an interesting grammatical point.

Is it "they is" or "they are"?

"Is" sounds grammatically wrong, but "are" indicates more than one person.

I want to comment on something I’ve seen stated twice, but not commented on, namely that there are only two biological sexes, male and female, and everyone is either one or the other. This is not true. A tiny proportion of people are biologically intersex, having chromosomes, hormones and/or genitalia which are ambiguous.

"Intersex" people are still male or female, they just have a developmental disorder (hence why intersex is less used now as it suggests a between the sexes status)

The entitlement in that video is shocking.

No one cares about your identity. It only matters to you.

If it doesn't work without the compliance of non consenting strangers and work colleagues then tough shit.

Not my job..not my problem

@PuzzledObserver

I have just about RTFT, learned a few things and remain confused about a few others.

I want to comment on something I’ve seen stated twice, but not commented on, namely that there are only two biological sexes, male and female, and everyone is either one or the other. This is not true. A tiny proportion of people are biologically intersex, having chromosomes, hormones and/or genitalia which are ambiguous.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex

Not me, though. I’m female and heterosexual. I was also a “tomboy” (short hair, physical play, didn’t do pretty or girly), worked in engineering and don’t do makeup, hair, nails etc. I never felt that I wasn’t a girl/woman, or needed to label myself. Well, other than “feminist”, meaning that males and females (and intersex people) are all fully and authentically human, of equal value, and that sex should not define or limit my interests, education or work opportunities.

People with intersex conditions (or DSDs as they are often called) are either male or female.

There are only two gametes: eggs and sperm. Every single human who has ever lived was conceived as the result of the fusion of one of each.

These conditions also have nothing to do with transgender identities.

I absolutely hate how heterosexual people are trying to colonise LGBT identities. As a member of the community since before Stonewall went rogue, I find it tragic what's happening to the movement. It's become a caricature.

want to comment on something I’ve seen stated twice, but not commented on, namely that there are only two biological sexes, male and female, and everyone is either one or the other. This is not true. A tiny proportion of people are biologically intersex, having chromosomes, hormones and/or genitalia which are ambiguous.

Sex is about reproductive potential. It is not a spectrum, and the existence of developmental disorders in both male and female people don't change the fact that human beings are sexually dimorphic. Sex is determined by gametes, not chromosomes but absent any developmental disorders all XY chromosomed people will develop to produce small gametes/sperm, as determined at the moment of conception, and all XX large ones/ova. Both are needed to reproduce.

This also has nothing to do with "non binary" gender identity.

Yes, I am rather nervous as they said middle aged women in jobs above them are triggering to them wtf??? Imagine the hell that would break loose if you said that you were triggered by younger non binary women.

Tbh I would assume she/they will complain about you at some point, and I'd keep that in mind when interacting with her/them.

Sex is about reproductive potential. It is not a spectrum, and the existence of developmental disorders in both male and female people don't change the fact that human beings are sexually dimorphic. Sex is determined by gametes, not chromosomes but absent any developmental disorders all XY chromosomed people will develop to produce small gametes/sperm, as determined at the moment of conception, and all XX large ones/ova. Both are needed to reproduce.

But some people are neither XX nor XY…

@Saracen

Haven't RTFT.

You don't need a deep understanding of nonbinary gender to address this situation. Just address your staff member in whatever way they have asked (pronouns, title). If kids get it wrong, remind them. It can be tricky to figure out whether kids are making a genuine mistake or whether kids are being sly and malicious - but that's often true of schoolkids and you'll have dealt with that challenge before. For example, I have a difficult-to-pronounce surname; some kids would snigger and mangle it deliberately while others genuinely couldn't manage it.

Suppose you had a male teacher who painted his nails and grew his hair long, and the kids kept calling him "Miss" and "her". You might privately think the kids were making an understandable mistake and that if he really expected them to remember he was male, he should cut his hair and stop painting his nails. But it wouldn't be your place to say so. I'm sure that will have occurred to him. He'd have his own reasons for his appearance and calling himself male. It's just the same in this case.

Sly and malicious? Are you on something?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

The trouble is, the word "woman" used to mean "biologically female people", and now it means something else we no longer have a word for "biologically female people".

Except most people stubbornly go on using the word the way it was always used.

Now I am confused. I was born female and now I'm an adult I'm a woman. Take for example, India Willoughby. She was born a boy but is now a woman. We're both women. Seems simple to me, even if only one of us menstruates. But then I guess Helen Mirren doesn't, and she's a woman too ......

Take for example, India Willoughby. She was born a boy but is now a woman. We're both women.

Why?

@PuzzledObserver

Sex is about reproductive potential. It is not a spectrum, and the existence of developmental disorders in both male and female people don't change the fact that human beings are sexually dimorphic. Sex is determined by gametes, not chromosomes but absent any developmental disorders all XY chromosomed people will develop to produce small gametes/sperm, as determined at the moment of conception, and all XX large ones/ova. Both are needed to reproduce.

But some people are neither XX nor XY…

But how many? And how many of those are trans?

PuzzledObserver, I’m afraid you too have fallen for TRA propaganda (Wikipedia is noted for being captured by TRAs).

As others have said, there are in fact only two sexes, and everyone falls into one of them, even if they have a DSD/VSD. It’s somewhat dehumanising to suggest otherwise and many campaigners on this issue have asked for that to be respected.

And as others have also said, this has precisely nothing to do with gender ideology. It is used as an obfuscatory mechanism to try and hide the clear fact that one sex class has dominated, controlled and abused the other sex class throughout history and throughout cultures.

The clear fact that only one class of people can impregnate and only one class can become pregnant (whether they actually do or not), and that the members of one sex can, generally speaking, overpower the members of the other sex if they so choose - and so there are different risks for the two sexes, different outcomes altogether in the case of unprotected heterosexual sex.

And that it is consequently important to accurately name and recognise those two sex classes, and who belongs to each one.

Particularly important for feminism: if we can’t name our oppressors, or identify the reality on which our oppression is based, how can we fight it?

India Willoughby is not a woman. There is not one thing, other than stereotypes, that we have in common.

Helen Mirren is a woman every cell in her DNA makes her a woman regardless of her current reproductive capabilities.

Amazing how easy it was when there was a word , a collective noun, for all of the human beings who share the same sex.

It's not hard to work out which class of people benefits most from the removal of the language we have to describe ourselves collectively as a sex class. it's definitely not women .

But some people are neither XX nor XY…

None of them are W or Z though.

Take for example, India Willoughby. She was born a boy but is now a woman. We're both women

In what way is India Willoughby a woman?!

@ImJustMadAboutSaffron India Willoughby is a transwoman.

"Is" sounds grammatically wrong, but "are" indicates more than one person.

Yes, it doesn't quite work either way.

There is not one thing, other than stereotypes, that we have in common.

What about a cervix?