To ask you to explain non binary to me (genuine question)

[crochetmonkey74]

I have a new non binary person on my team at work (I am a manager)
They present as female-very much so in dress and grooming, they have a very feminine name too ,they have told me that they are heterosexual and live with their partner. However they want to be known as 'they' and the pronoun 'MX'
I am happily doing all this, I believe everyone should be comfortable and I will address people how they wish to be addressed.
I'm a teacher so my new member of the team is continually being misgendered by the students (due to the incongruity of appearance and pronoun) we have other non binary more androgynous looking staff who are not misgendered.
My new staff member is a nice person but they are very aware of correcting people, and have already complained (not about me)
I'm keen to do this right and not offend but also despite trying to read around the issue, I cant find much about non binary females who present in a feminine aspect.
This is not a bait thread or a stealth moan. It is a genuine question. Anyone got any experience with this?

Did this person come with references?

@crochetmonkey74

*Then they are transphobic and need to be educated.

Teaching them the curriculum pales into insignificance next to this*

So is non binary Transgender? because on the internet it says that you can be cisgender but non binary?

OP genderism is not an ideology where you will find straightforward answers to questions like this. Stonewall probably includes 'non-binary' under their 'trans umbrella', but they also include 'cross dresser' and various other contested terms/identities.

TBH, it all comes down to theories that are fairly close to star signs. Of course one needs to respect a person's wish to be addressed a certain way, so long as it's practicable. But it's worth bearing in mind a lot of the 'evidence' this ideology is based on is written by people on the internet. You can research it, but don't expect it to have much in the way of logical coherence:

gender.fandom.com/wiki/Non-binary

This might be useful wrt non-binary identities:

'
The Galactian Alignments
1

The galactian alignments were created for non-binary people to describe the genders they identify with or align with without using binary terms such as "masculine" or "female-aligned." It is important to note that not all non binary people use the galactian alignments.
Terminology

Solarian: masculine, male-aligned.
Lunarian: feminine, female-aligned.
Stellarian: neutral, neutrally-aligned.
Nebularian: neutral and feminine, either fluctuating or simultaneously. Also called stellunarian.
Novarian: neutral and masculine, either fluctuating or simultaneously. Also called solstellarian.
Eclipsian: feminine and masculine, either fluctuating or simultaneously. Also called sollunarian.
Galaxian: feminine, masculine, and neutral, either fluctuating or simultaneously. Also called solstellunarian.
Voidarian: nonaligned, rejection of alignments. Also called singularian.
Celestian: partially connected to being Stellarian (demi-Stellarian)
Dawnian: partially connected to being Solarian (demi-Solarian)
Duskian: partially connected to being Lunarian (demi-Lunarian)

Any of these terms can be used as a gender identity in it's own or as a modifier (for example: "solarian" can be used by a masc nonbinary person, but "solarian demiboy" could also be used). '

gender.fandom.com/wiki/The_Galactian_Alignments

@crochetmonkey74

*Then they are transphobic and need to be educated.

Teaching them the curriculum pales into insignificance next to this*

So is non binary Transgender? because on the internet it says that you can be cisgender but non binary?

As I understand it, all gender identities other than "cisgender" fall under the trans umbrella.

A couple of times I have patiently tried to explain that I do not identify as "cisgender" because I do not have a gender identity at all, and been told that I am "agender" and therefore also under the umbrella, whether I want to be or not (I don't).

As far as I can make out, if you accept that gender identity exists but don't believe you have one then you are agender, and if you don't believe it exists at all in any meaningful sense then you are cisgender and also have cis privilege, which I am told is the gender equivalent of speaking with received pronunciation and believing you don't have an accent.

Everyone must have a gender label because the alternative is unthinkable.

If I only wish to be labelled a "woman" then I am cisgender.

If I only want to be labelled an adult human of the female biological sex then I am shit out of luck because we do not have a word for that in the English language.

Apparently we need words like cisgender and agender and non-binary, and we need the word "women" to mean "most adult humans of the female biological sex except the ones who identify as men or non-binary, plus some adult humans of the male biological sex who identify as women" (despite the fact that this is both a circular definition and a non existent group of people with nothing in common which we don't actually need a word for), but there is absolutely no need for a word which means "adult humans of the female biological sex".

If you think there is a need for such a word, you are guilty of biological essentialism and reducing women to their reproductive role, which is regressive. Apparently all mainstream feminists now agree that we should be reducing women to "people who like shopping and chick flicks and can't put up shelves or parallel park", so that trans women can be included.

You can research it, but don't expect it to have much in the way of logical coherence:

Exactly, there are about three different versions of what it means on this thread alone.

If I only want to be labelled an adult human of the female biological sex then I am shit out of luck because we do not have a word for that in the English language.

This is the kicker.

@PearPickingPorky

So a straight person who isn't one of the Boring Straight People, then.

Only if you think a person’s gender and/or sexual preferences are the only interesting thing about them surely?

@x2boys

It seems people who "identify" as non binary can't just quietly go around being "non binary" they have to make sure everyone knows 🙄

Like being a vegan 😃

@Ereshkigalangcleg

What rubbish.

I think this poster is being sarcastic

You got me.

They have said how they would like to be addressed which is fine.

The problem is all the "triggering" that surrounds all this bollocks (imo).

People get things wrong, it's not malicious.

My kids wouldn't have got to adulthood without a shit load of therapy if they were triggered every time I accidentally called them by each other's names, the dogs name, the cats name...

@PearPickingPorky

So a straight person who isn't one of the Boring Straight People, then.

I didn't know Laurie Penny had joined the teaching profession.

@RoaringtoLangClegintheDark

This is a great idea as I'm aware lots of students are being reminded/spoken to a lot about misgendering and it is a genuine mistake for them, they forget as my colleagues presents traditionally female.

To come at this from another angle, I think you are - quite unintentionally - participating in the wholesale gaslighting (which is a form of emotional abuse) of these students.

This is harmful to them. To be constantly pulled up for something they are pretty much inevitably going to do. To be told that they cannot trust the evidence of their senses, their own interpretation of the world; they are wrong for not censoring and pre-editing every single one of their interactions with this person, and for reading this person who presents as obviously female, as obviously female.

It seems to me this colleague is far more concerned with “their” own well being than that of the students. I would seriously question this person’s suitability as a teacher at all.

I realise that’s no help to you in dealing with the current situation but I just thought you might find it interesting to have another perspective. The adult is effectively claiming to be vulnerable relative to the students here, but that’s turning everything on its head. In the adult teacher/student dynamic, it is the young people who are more vulnerable - which safeguarding acknowledges.

What I see here is a teacher making the students prioritise “their” (singular) well being ahead of their (plural) own, and that’s not good. It’s a form of control.

How can we teach young people to spot the red flags of abusive behaviours in their personal relationships if we are allowing teachers and other staff in schools to behave in the very same controlling and gaslighting ways towards them with impunity? Not just allowing but enabling and encouraging?

I suspect you are used to living and working within a culture where it’s heresy to even ask any of these questions though, so I guess it won’t be easy to take this on board. And as I said originally, I am quite sure that you are acting from the very best of intentions.

It is worth asking yourself though if you feel your first duty is to the students in your care, or your colleagues?

This.

@babyjellyfish
"binary.
Then they are transphobic and need to be educated.

Teaching them the curriculum pales into insignificance next to this."

This person isn't trans.
And being GC is a characteristic protected under the equalities act.
So how do you square that circle?

(Or @babyjellyfish were you being sarcastic?)

@Ereshkigalangcleg

If I only want to be labelled an adult human of the female biological sex then I am shit out of luck because we do not have a word for that in the English language.

This is the kicker.

I don't understand this bit of it

I actually can't tell now which posts are sarcastic and which are earnest.

I feel entirely baffled and I am an intelligent, liberal woman who should understand it

Just popping in to point out that in 2020 the employment tribunal held (in Taylor v Land Rover) that non binary and gender fluid people are protected under the “gender reassignment” characteristic. So if this non binary member of staff feels discriminated against they definitely have a route under the equality act. Now , it is only a first instance decision so doesn’t create precedent but still…

Something that confused me… the tribunal said that non binary identity is “clearly” a case of gender reassignment and that it is “clear that gender is a spectrum.” But hold on… if gender is a spectrum there is no gender binary. Everyone , by definition, occupies a point on the spectrum. So everyone is non binary!

As for advice… I sympathise with you OP. A long standing friend of mine “came out” as non binary last year. The problem? They insisted the entire time I knew them (four years ago) that they had ALWAYS been non binary. So they kept complaining that I had constantly misgendered them, always used offensive language like “ladies”, never respected their identity etc. And that I was transphobic. It didn’t matter that I and other friends pointed out that they had actually identified as female for the entire time we knew them and the non binary identity was a recent revelation. Apparently they have always been non binary, gender identity doesn’t change, and they are deeply hurt by thinking about years of memories of me misgendering them. It’s apparently “besides the point” that they only came out last year. So I was being called a bigot, a TERF, etc because I should have had mind reading powers and directly contradicted her at a time when she introduced herself with “she” pronouns. Anyway , the only solution was to never talk to this person again. They were absolutely determined to make drama and fuss out of every interaction and make me walk on eggshells. It’s trickier for you because it’s a workplace situation, so I suggest you make everything completely formal and by the book.

The pretentious identities of middle class young adults is something I find really tedious.

Haven't RTFT.

You don't need a deep understanding of nonbinary gender to address this situation. Just address your staff member in whatever way they have asked (pronouns, title). If kids get it wrong, remind them. It can be tricky to figure out whether kids are making a genuine mistake or whether kids are being sly and malicious - but that's often true of schoolkids and you'll have dealt with that challenge before. For example, I have a difficult-to-pronounce surname; some kids would snigger and mangle it deliberately while others genuinely couldn't manage it.

Suppose you had a male teacher who painted his nails and grew his hair long, and the kids kept calling him "Miss" and "her". You might privately think the kids were making an understandable mistake and that if he really expected them to remember he was male, he should cut his hair and stop painting his nails. But it wouldn't be your place to say so. I'm sure that will have occurred to him. He'd have his own reasons for his appearance and calling himself male. It's just the same in this case.

I don't understand this bit of it

Basically they have redefined the word "woman" as a gender identity, which includes both trans women and "cis" women, but not trans men or non binary people.

The trouble is, the word "woman" used to mean "biologically female people", and now it means something else we no longer have a word for "biologically female people".

@WeeBisom your friend sounds batshit. How the hell did they justify expecting you you be a mind reader / fortune teller?

I don't understand this bit of it

That the only people who aren't allowed to have the label they want are women who merely want their female sex acknowledged as a thing.

Anyway , the only solution was to never talk to this person again.

Tempting, but sadly not an option if you are their line manager.

The trouble is, the word "woman" used to mean "biologically female people", and now it means something else we no longer have a word for "biologically female people".

Except most people stubbornly go on using the word the way it was always used.

Tempting, but sadly not an option if you are their line manager.

Indeed.