To ask you to explain non binary to me (genuine question)

[crochetmonkey74]

I have a new non binary person on my team at work (I am a manager)
They present as female-very much so in dress and grooming, they have a very feminine name too ,they have told me that they are heterosexual and live with their partner. However they want to be known as 'they' and the pronoun 'MX'
I am happily doing all this, I believe everyone should be comfortable and I will address people how they wish to be addressed.
I'm a teacher so my new member of the team is continually being misgendered by the students (due to the incongruity of appearance and pronoun) we have other non binary more androgynous looking staff who are not misgendered.
My new staff member is a nice person but they are very aware of correcting people, and have already complained (not about me)
I'm keen to do this right and not offend but also despite trying to read around the issue, I cant find much about non binary females who present in a feminine aspect.
This is not a bait thread or a stealth moan. It is a genuine question. Anyone got any experience with this?

In a way nb is better for kids than them feeling at odds with their gender/sex and deciding to change it or having to decide one way or another.

However, our brain doesn't actively think of every word we say. It tries to save energy as much as possible and it has learned that if someone looks a certain way, then someone has a certain label. We don't actively judge every person before speaking.

I remember coming to the UK as a child from a country where all girls had long hair and to me anyone with very short hair was male. I remember being convinced that annie Lennox was a man. Not judgemental at all just that until then, I hadn't come across a woman with such short hair.

We have learned a language that says they/them is plural, so of course it is hard to have to remember that some people, despite presenting as she or him, will be they. We can now put that on our social media handles so maybe if we had stickers until people got used to it. People are bound to make mistakes, or just do away with it altogether. Everyone can be they.

they are protected by law

No, they aren't. The protected characteristic is gender reassignment, not gender identity. Non binary gender identity is not a concept defined in law.

There has been one non binding, dubious decision in an employment tribunal to date that this covered a trans MTF who was not presenting as female 100% of the time and so it was claimed this person was "non binary" but it's unlikely that would extend to an obvious female person presenting as an obviously female person and wanting special treatment. The male person in the case was being deliberately bullied by colleagues and the situation was poorly managed, this is not in any way the same. Compelling speech is also against human rights act principles.

I suppose they could whip it up into a "hate crime" if they got the police involved, but there have been recent judgements about this and how it relates to freedom of speech. I hope there is more clarity soon that disbelieving in this ideology is a right.

The couple who are voice coaches of various tv shows - David and Carrie Grant - have children who are socially non-binary but female at home. I don't really understand that

Thanks for all the thoughts- I will be logging everything, using preferred pronouns and hoping a lot of this comes out in the wash over the next few weeks

Tbf she could be reported for sexism and ageism for her comment re Middle Aged Women.

She sounds like she it trolling the heck out of everyone she encounters and baiting them for reprisal.

This is a great idea as I'm aware lots of students are being reminded/spoken to a lot about misgendering and it is a genuine mistake for them, they forget as my colleagues presents traditionally female.

To come at this from another angle, I think you are - quite unintentionally - participating in the wholesale gaslighting (which is a form of emotional abuse) of these students.

This is harmful to them. To be constantly pulled up for something they are pretty much inevitably going to do. To be told that they cannot trust the evidence of their senses, their own interpretation of the world; they are wrong for not censoring and pre-editing every single one of their interactions with this person, and for reading this person who presents as obviously female, as obviously female.

It seems to me this colleague is far more concerned with “their” own well being than that of the students. I would seriously question this person’s suitability as a teacher at all.

I realise that’s no help to you in dealing with the current situation but I just thought you might find it interesting to have another perspective. The adult is effectively claiming to be vulnerable relative to the students here, but that’s turning everything on its head. In the adult teacher/student dynamic, it is the young people who are more vulnerable - which safeguarding acknowledges.

What I see here is a teacher making the students prioritise “their” (singular) well being ahead of their (plural) own, and that’s not good. It’s a form of control.

How can we teach young people to spot the red flags of abusive behaviours in their personal relationships if we are allowing teachers and other staff in schools to behave in the very same controlling and gaslighting ways towards them with impunity? Not just allowing but enabling and encouraging?

I suspect you are used to living and working within a culture where it’s heresy to even ask any of these questions though, so I guess it won’t be easy to take this on board. And as I said originally, I am quite sure that you are acting from the very best of intentions.

It is worth asking yourself though if you feel your first duty is to the students in your care, or your colleagues?

Gender ideology and religious ideology are both areas of thought that have their firm adherents and their equally firm anti-ideologists. It is reasonable that there is room in the school and in life for both positions to hold true, though personally I know which side of the argument I favour.....

The absolute priority of the school must be the children - their education and their welfare. I haven't noticed what age group we are talking about here. For older ones maybe it's a topic for PHSE, for younger ones I can well imagine angry parents taking exception to their children being told off for an innocent mistake like saying "Miss".

For myself, I reject the concept of gender as much as I reject the concept of a soul being a separate thing from my body, my consciousness being a separate thing from my brain, and my likes and dislikes being anything directly related to what sex I am.

And I absolutely draw the line at anyone attempting to compel my speech.

They don’t want to be tied down to a gender, is how I read it. As they’ve mentioned past trauma, there could also be something that’s happened to them that has made them reject the idea of being a woman

I think this.

For me. How I dress isn't associated with my gender, I don't wear feminine clothes, I don't wear masculin clothes. I wear clothes I like. I would class myself as non binary but I use "her" because I don't really care what I'm called, I guess that's come from having a name that's pronounced wrong and regularly mistaken for a boy. If you're looking at me and talking I'll just assume you're talking to/about me. But for some people it's quite an emotional or upsetting thing. Perhaps she's been fed anti-woman nastiness from an abusive/,misogynistic family member and doesn't want to be a woman.

It's a good lesson on not making assumptions about people from how they look I think. But she has to be a bit thicker skinned. There's worse things teenagers can say and do than accidentally misgendering you if you turn them against you.

What happens if any of the children doesn't believe in a person being non binary.

It is worth asking yourself though if you feel your first duty is to the students in your care, or your colleagues?

It is UNEQUIVOCALLY my students

@Cailin66

What happens if any of the children doesn't believe in a person being non binary.

Then they are transphobic and need to be educated.

Teaching them the curriculum pales into insignificance next to this.

@Rivering

Too much effort.

My workplace has this policy of making sure everyone’s preferences are respected .... on paper.
It’s only the HR team/office staff that actually give a stuff about it because they’re fresh out of school and like to be seen as right-on, the rest of the workforce, will still banter about calling eachother a homo or a bender or calling a sporty looking woman a dyke (even if she isn’t) in front of their faces, behind their back, whenever.

It’s all theoretical unless you work in a trendy office environment or somewhere a staff member can take up the liability potential of suing a company because the canteen staff keep referring to them as ‘luv’ or ‘mate’.

You’re Sally or Bob or whatever your name is. No time to second guess whether you’re a biologically born female masquerading as a man or a lamp-post, too busy with getting on with the job.

Well, your workplace sounds a delight. By 'a trendy office environment' I guess you mean 'an environment where homophobia is given its proper short shrift, as enshrined in law.'? One assumes and hopes that it's only a matter of time until someone in your workplace comes a cropper.

Coming late to the thread and can't claim to have read everything, but.... oh my, what a messy situation!

So let me get this straight... this new teacher is biologically female, presents as female but insists on being non-binary and being called 'they?'

And then proceeds to disrupt the dynamic between staff, and with pupils? Throws in a few ageist and sexist comments to you, a middle aged female teacher? And makes a remark about another teacher having a Harry Potter poster... eh? What's that about?

Call me old fashioned, but all this woke stuff is getting on my size 24D tits. The perfect excuse for attention seekers to have everyone walking on egg shells.

@BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz

Tbf she could be reported for sexism and ageism for her comment re Middle Aged Women.

She sounds like she it trolling the heck out of everyone she encounters and baiting them for reprisal.

Good point about the middle-aged women comment.

*Then they are transphobic and need to be educated.

Teaching them the curriculum pales into insignificance next to this*

So is non binary Transgender? because on the internet it says that you can be cisgender but non binary?

So a straight person who isn't one of the Boring Straight People, then.

I wear feminine clothes (to some extent) because that’s what is made to fit my body type. I don’t have an emotional attachment to them and I recognise that part of my gendering as female has been towards such clothes. In other words it is socially constructed and not biological. I don’t see clothes as an important part of my identity I just wish they made them in good natural fibres, with comfort in mind and more pockets.

But for some people it's quite an emotional or upsetting thing. Perhaps she's been fed anti-woman nastiness from an abusive/,misogynistic family member and doesn't want to be a woman

If this is the case, then she needs therapy to deal with this. We all have issues and some of us need support to deal with things. The solution is not to try to control the language and thoughts of everyone around you. Its learning to control your own internal language and thoughts.

Cisgender is a load of bollocks.

@Helleofabore

Because if you are referenced as a "he" you just inherently know that is not right and will feel annoyed everyone is calling you by something you're not.

If you are a person who feels annoyed being called a 'he' in error, you probably do need to work out why this annoys you. Having been in that situation, it is actually possible to not be annoyed with it.

I have one of those names that has male and female variants that sound identical, but are spelt differently. I have been misgendered and it's fucking annoying!

When I was young, there were so many times that it was mispelt and people were expecting a man to turn up, that I got utterly sick of it. In my teens, I had an operation cancelled, because they had booked me a bed on a male ward which was absurd, given that my hospital record must surely show I'm female.

In the end, I started using a short form of my first name that is almost invariably female, which has so far prevented confusion.

@ThreeFeetTall

What are they asking you to do? Could you talk to them in a coaching type of way- "what do you think would be the best way for you to respond when someone says this to you?"

I'm sure the OP has far more important calls on her(?) time as a manager of a Department such as ensuring that the pupils are well taught.

*Then they are transphobic and need to be educated.

Teaching them the curriculum pales into insignificance next to this.*
You're joking right? It's getting so hard to tell!

Then they are transphobic and need to be educated.
Teaching them the curriculum pales into insignificance next to this
What rubbish.

So is non binary Transgender? because on the internet it says that you can be cisgender but non binary?

Can you link this? Non binary is a form of being transgender. And "cisgender" isn't actually a thing.

What rubbish.

I think this poster is being sarcastic