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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask you to explain non binary to me (genuine question)

584 replies

crochetmonkey74 · 15/02/2022 10:05

I have a new non binary person on my team at work (I am a manager)
They present as female-very much so in dress and grooming, they have a very feminine name too ,they have told me that they are heterosexual and live with their partner. However they want to be known as 'they' and the pronoun 'MX'
I am happily doing all this, I believe everyone should be comfortable and I will address people how they wish to be addressed.
I'm a teacher so my new member of the team is continually being misgendered by the students (due to the incongruity of appearance and pronoun) we have other non binary more androgynous looking staff who are not misgendered.
My new staff member is a nice person but they are very aware of correcting people, and have already complained (not about me)
I'm keen to do this right and not offend but also despite trying to read around the issue, I cant find much about non binary females who present in a feminine aspect.
This is not a bait thread or a stealth moan. It is a genuine question. Anyone got any experience with this?

OP posts:
Polyanthus2 · 15/02/2022 12:48

@HiJenny35
I think young people are so sick of these socially constructed norms that we are meant to conform to and want more.

Well yes, that's fine but if that's the case why is the person in question presenting as traditional female - I mean chuck the socially constructed norms - great idea - but don't then choose ONE of them to present as. And get upset when people address you as the socially accepted norm you are presenting with - that's asking for problems.

LakieLady · 15/02/2022 12:50

@Clytemnestra4

Unfortunately for this person the fact they appear as female is going to mean that a lot of people are going to address them with female pronouns.

Yes we can all try to be respectful of someone’s preferred pronouns but in this situation this would require a level of alertness and cognitive dissonance that is unrealistic to maintain at all times. Like if someone told me that from now on I must always refer to blue as red and red as blue - I could try but realistically I’d slip up a lot.

The harsh reality is that while this person is free to identify with whatever they want, but that’s where their control ends. Policing how other people identify them is outwith their control.

How would you cope with working in an environment where misgendering someone is a disciplinary matter?
Abigail12345654321 · 15/02/2022 12:50

@Rivering

Too much effort.

My workplace has this policy of making sure everyone’s preferences are respected .... on paper.
It’s only the HR team/office staff that actually give a stuff about it because they’re fresh out of school and like to be seen as right-on, the rest of the workforce, will still banter about calling eachother a homo or a bender or calling a sporty looking woman a dyke (even if she isn’t) in front of their faces, behind their back, whenever.

It’s all theoretical unless you work in a trendy office environment or somewhere a staff member can take up the liability potential of suing a company because the canteen staff keep referring to them as ‘luv’ or ‘mate’.

You’re Sally or Bob or whatever your name is. No time to second guess whether you’re a biologically born female masquerading as a man or a lamp-post, too busy with getting on with the job.

Homophobia isn’t the same. Sexual orientation is a protected characteristic in law and the ‘banter’ needs to stop. It’s not big, it’s not clever and I can 100% assure you that it’s upsetting someone.
LonelyInAutumn · 15/02/2022 12:51

Not sure why they can't give a short explanation instead of making you jump through hoops to figure out what they want 🤔

RealBecca · 15/02/2022 12:51

I would take a facilitating role here. You dont ask the kids to call them teacher, you let them ask the kids to do that and support the situation. Like if they accidentally forget, fine, if its deliberate they treat as you would bullying.

But I'd also be seeking support of my manager as you are. Perhaps have a 1:1 with your new team member in a month and ask how they are settling in and whether they have any issues they want to raise.

Frankly it doesnt matter what anyone thinks about it, they are protected by law and you need to support them lest you risk your job or stress of grievance (which you may be ripe for given the comment made previously)

Notahandmaid · 15/02/2022 12:53

@RealBecca

I would take a facilitating role here. You dont ask the kids to call them teacher, you let them ask the kids to do that and support the situation. Like if they accidentally forget, fine, if its deliberate they treat as you would bullying.

But I'd also be seeking support of my manager as you are. Perhaps have a 1:1 with your new team member in a month and ask how they are settling in and whether they have any issues they want to raise.

Frankly it doesnt matter what anyone thinks about it, they are protected by law and you need to support them lest you risk your job or stress of grievance (which you may be ripe for given the comment made previously)

How are they protected by law? Gender identity is not a protected characteristic in the Equality Act. Gender reassignment is.
Oblomov22 · 15/02/2022 12:54

I fear this is an accident waiting to happen. The fact they called it triggering is a warning to you that this type of person is bound to make further complaints.

FanFckingTastic · 15/02/2022 12:54

They sounds like hard work. I would imagine that the students are a bit bemused by calling a singular person 'they' - let's hope that They is not an English language teacher. All of this hoo-har for They to feel validated in his/her/it's quest for non-binaryism seems a bit mad, particularly in a school environment.

Abigail12345654321 · 15/02/2022 12:54

Homosexuality and transgenderism are not connected in any way. That’s why people want to separate the LGB from the T. It’s unhelpful to gay and lesbian people, who are a minority, if they are grouped with the trans brigade. Because the number of trans people vastly outnumbers the number of gay and lesbian people and so, as ever, their voices aren’t being heard.

Cailin66 · 15/02/2022 12:54

@crochetmonkey74

They don’t want to be tied down to a gender, is how I read it. As they’ve mentioned past trauma, there could also be something that’s happened to them that has made them reject the idea of being a woman

Yes, I am rather nervous as they said middle aged women in jobs above them are triggering to them and they have been a bit grumbly about various things so I am treading carefully

crochetmonkey74 Yes, I am rather nervous as they said middle aged women in jobs above them are triggering to them and they have been a bit grumbly about various things so I am treading carefully

Does this mean that you are triggering to her as well? Have you asked her? What else is she grumpy about?

Abigail12345654321 · 15/02/2022 12:55

@RealBecca

I would take a facilitating role here. You dont ask the kids to call them teacher, you let them ask the kids to do that and support the situation. Like if they accidentally forget, fine, if its deliberate they treat as you would bullying.

But I'd also be seeking support of my manager as you are. Perhaps have a 1:1 with your new team member in a month and ask how they are settling in and whether they have any issues they want to raise.

Frankly it doesnt matter what anyone thinks about it, they are protected by law and you need to support them lest you risk your job or stress of grievance (which you may be ripe for given the comment made previously)

Protected by law in what sense? They have the same human rights as the other teacher in the room. But only one of them is behaving like a bully.
Notahandmaid · 15/02/2022 12:56

Sounds like she has a woman problem - doesn’t want to be known as one, doesn’t want to report into one.

user26147 · 15/02/2022 12:56

@RealBecca

I would take a facilitating role here. You dont ask the kids to call them teacher, you let them ask the kids to do that and support the situation. Like if they accidentally forget, fine, if its deliberate they treat as you would bullying.

But I'd also be seeking support of my manager as you are. Perhaps have a 1:1 with your new team member in a month and ask how they are settling in and whether they have any issues they want to raise.

Frankly it doesnt matter what anyone thinks about it, they are protected by law and you need to support them lest you risk your job or stress of grievance (which you may be ripe for given the comment made previously)

Not protected by law in the slightest, gender identity isn't a protected characteristic
babyjellyfish · 15/02/2022 12:57

OP, there are lots and lots of opinions on this thread about what being non binary means and most people seem to be of the view that it is all a load of nonsense.

However, to your staff member, it is not a load of nonsense.

The difficulty for you is that we are living in a political climate where the prevailing narrative is that people's gender identities must be "affirmed" and that any failure to do so is "transphobic".

I could write an essay about the hypocrisy of people who insist on being referred to in exactly the way they wish but call other people "cis" with impunity, or who voluntarily exclude themselves from the word "woman" but then want us to come up with euphemisms for female people such as "people with cervixes" and use them so that they can be included. I could speak at length about people who insist that the trans community is the most vulnerable and marginalised and their lives are in constant danger, but think it's fine for male bodied sex offenders to be housed in women's prisons and that if trans activists stalk JK Rowling outside her house and post her address on Twitter she's just getting what she deserves.

But none of that is relevant to your predicament.

Four things so far stand out about your staff member's behaviour:

  • undermining their colleague by attempting to correct their language in front of children
  • saying they feel "triggered" by middle aged women in senior positions, which is both sexist and ageist and also suggests that they are unlikely to be cooperative with anyone in that position who has management responsibilities for them
  • making another staff member feel uncomfortable by commenting on her Harry Potter poster
  • constantly correcting the children which they find upsetting and which detracts from the purpose of their interaction, which is for "them" to teach the children the curriculum in a supportive environment

This does need to be raised with "them", in the same way that it would need to be raised with any other member of staff without a non binary gender identity who behaved in an equivalent way.

However, "they" are unlikely to respond well to such criticism and are likely to make accusations of "transphobia".

So what do you do?

WRITE EVERYTHING DOWN. Cover your back.

Keep your own notes with dates and times, what happened, who said what, what the outcome was.

At the same time, every single time there is an incident, compose an email, very carefully, setting out exactly what happened, who "they" were interacting with, who said what, in what context, why "they" were upset, what "they" did about it, what impact this had on the other people concerned. Try to get absolutely all the relevant information down, commenting as little as possible on "their" gender identity, and expressing no opinions about that aspect of things whatsoever. Stick purely to the facts.

And then send the email to someone senior to you who has a legitimate need to know these things, for example, your own line manager.
Frame it either as a "this happened, just keeping you in the loop", or even better, if you can, "This happened, what should I do about it?"

Or, "This happened, what should I do if it happens again?"

Or "This happened, are you happy with the way I dealt with it?"

If this person has poor performance in any other aspect of their job which is unrelated to their gender identity, note that too (provided that it is something you would make a note of if any other member of your team did it - you don't want this to look like a vendetta).

The reason I say all of this is because "they" appear to be a prime candidate for being let go because they are useless at their job, and then bringing an unfair dismissal claim on grounds of transphobia.

You need to make sure that your own conduct is irreproachable.

But at the same time, you also need to do your job as a manager and if this person's gender identity is affecting their job (which it is), you can't just pretend it's not happening.

Lottapianos · 15/02/2022 12:57

'How are they protected by law? Gender identity is not a protected characteristic in the Equality Act. Gender reassignment is.'

Exactly

Notahandmaid · 15/02/2022 12:59

Perhaps OP, if she has a problem with reporting into a middle aged woman, you could go into work tomorrow and tell her you identify as non binary now. Hey presto, problem solved!

(Sorry to be flippant, but her comment to you was very worrying.)

user26147 · 15/02/2022 12:59

Although 'they' have indicated in no uncertain terms that they are a grievance waiting to happen the second their 'triggering' middle aged female manager says anything they don't agree with unkind

Rivering · 15/02/2022 12:59

I am feeling a bit intimidated and like I need to walk on eggshells
This is how this movement wants you to feel.
If this person presents as feminine it is hardly surprising that people refer to them as female. It may come as a surprise to them, but themselves and their identity are not foremost on other people's minds. Therefore people are quite likely to not think to correct their experience of their person as female before they speak in normal conversation.
In a sane world you would be able to tell this person that their constant need to police other people's words and thoughts is starting to border on harassment.

Most sensible summary I’ve read yet. This is how the real world thinks.

SoonbeSpringtime · 15/02/2022 13:00

I genuinely don’t understand their triggering issue. Middle aged women in senior positions trigger what exactly. Do young, powerful women trigger issues? Or elderly women? Or men of any age? Do people of different races or religions trigger issues if they’re powerful? Or are they simply both sexist and ageist?

I’d also be interested in what feelings are triggered. If someone’s caused issues by bullying, violence, accidents and so on, it’s kind of self explanatory, but middle aged and female? Sounds extremely personal and specific, which could easily lead to accusations of discrimination.
Which is ironic when other people are trying hard not to be.

BoredZelda · 15/02/2022 13:00

I must admit surprise to them admitting to being ageist and sexist.

Yes, this is very surprising.

Not sure what you are looking for OP, but I would be very surprised if you find it on Mumsnet in AIBU.

x2boys · 15/02/2022 13:01

@Abigail12345654321

Homosexuality and transgenderism are not connected in any way. That’s why people want to separate the LGB from the T. It’s unhelpful to gay and lesbian people, who are a minority, if they are grouped with the trans brigade. Because the number of trans people vastly outnumbers the number of gay and lesbian people and so, as ever, their voices aren’t being heard.
No yes I have to say I do feel sorry for gay people being lumped in with Trans gender ,they fought for years for equal rights ,and now they are being eroded again ,it's definitely a backwards move .
TheOriginalEmu · 15/02/2022 13:02

@crochetmonkey74

I have a new non binary person on my team at work (I am a manager) They present as female-very much so in dress and grooming, they have a very feminine name too ,they have told me that they are heterosexual and live with their partner. However they want to be known as 'they' and the pronoun 'MX' I am happily doing all this, I believe everyone should be comfortable and I will address people how they wish to be addressed. I'm a teacher so my new member of the team is continually being misgendered by the students (due to the incongruity of appearance and pronoun) we have other non binary more androgynous looking staff who are not misgendered. My new staff member is a nice person but they are very aware of correcting people, and have already complained (not about me) I'm keen to do this right and not offend but also despite trying to read around the issue, I cant find much about non binary females who present in a feminine aspect. This is not a bait thread or a stealth moan. It is a genuine question. Anyone got any experience with this?
If you saw a woman who was presenting in masculine clothes, or who had a male name would you assume she was a man? Probably not. This is the same, presenting as feminine doesn’t have anything to do with if you are non-binary. It’s that simple.
crochetmonkey74 · 15/02/2022 13:02

Not sure what you are looking for OP, but I would be very surprised if you find it on Mumsnet in AIBU

I'm looking for discussion on an issue in my life- same thing I have always used MN for

OP posts:
FOJN · 15/02/2022 13:04

Are you familiar with the Safe Schools Alliance? I haven't had reason to contact them but they may be able to offer advice/support or at least point you in the right direction.

safeschoolsallianceuk.net/

Are you in a union? Is the union "captured"? They may be worth approaching but I would be a little bit cautious.

Are you responsible for managing this person? If you are they have made that position untenable with their comments about being triggered by older women in senior positions. Your own manager needs to acknowledge this. Put everything in writing to your manager to make sure there is a paper trail of your efforts to support them.

Document EVERYTHING for future reference. I think you are unlikely to escape unscathed from this person's self absorbed behaviour, be ready to defend yourself.

People like this often alienate themselves out of the job they're in. Most people want to be accomodating, even if it's only for a quiet life, but sooner or later when the demands become tyrannical colleagues will stop talking to them because they are afraid thy might be reported for anything that comes out of their mouth.

I worked with someone like this once, (not non binary) everyone was out to get her and she was never treated with the respect she thought she deserved. She wreaked havoc wherever she went. When she was eventually sacked for being such a bloody trouble maker the building heaved a sigh of relief.

brainhurts · 15/02/2022 13:05

Get the students to call them teacher, but they need to get over themselves they present as female what do they think they will be called " hey you !"