To ask you to explain non binary to me (genuine question)

[crochetmonkey74]

I have a new non binary person on my team at work (I am a manager)
They present as female-very much so in dress and grooming, they have a very feminine name too ,they have told me that they are heterosexual and live with their partner. However they want to be known as 'they' and the pronoun 'MX'
I am happily doing all this, I believe everyone should be comfortable and I will address people how they wish to be addressed.
I'm a teacher so my new member of the team is continually being misgendered by the students (due to the incongruity of appearance and pronoun) we have other non binary more androgynous looking staff who are not misgendered.
My new staff member is a nice person but they are very aware of correcting people, and have already complained (not about me)
I'm keen to do this right and not offend but also despite trying to read around the issue, I cant find much about non binary females who present in a feminine aspect.
This is not a bait thread or a stealth moan. It is a genuine question. Anyone got any experience with this?

Oh God, as I posted that I figured it's going to be some anti-JKR thing, I guess?

I think you should be clear that children are not to be reprimanded for getting it "wrong". It is wrong to force others to accept an ideology they don't understand or necessarily agree with - especially as this person cannot explain what it is either!!

Does your line manager know about the effect this is having on the children?

Someone so hyper sensitive to perceived slights seems completely unsuited to being a teacher.

@mumda

How do you pronounce MX?

Em ex? Or M(i)X?

That was one of my first thoughts

Ha, I know a non-binary person who was absolutely furious when they visited Hungary (we are there a lot as DH is Hungarian) and realised they couldn't make an issue about their pronouns because there's only one in Hungarian and it's gender-neutral. They spent a really long time trying to work out how to translate non-binary without referring to pronouns. It was very funny watching them implode!

bahahaha brilliant, how can they be special now???!!!!

Ha, I know a non-binary person who was absolutely furious when they visited Hungary (we are there a lot as DH is Hungarian) and realised they couldn't make an issue about their pronouns because there's only one in Hungarian and it's gender-neutral. They spent a really long time trying to work out how to translate non-binary without referring to pronouns. It was very funny watching them implode!

It doesn't work in French either as there is no gender neutral pronoun.

They've had to invent one "iel".

However, possessive pronouns are gendered according to the object being possessed rather than the person doing the possessing, so it has no impact on that, and verb conjugations which are affected by the gender of the person either have an extra "e" on the end if the person is female or they don't have an extra "e" if the person is male. So in reality "iel" will just become a synonym of "he".

In a laanguage where not just everyone but everyTHING from countries to furniture to emotions is either masculine or feminine, good luck convincing people that you alone are neither.

What do people mean about when they talk about feeling their mind or soul is neither make nor female? I literally can't understand why anyone would ask themselves that question. How would you even answer something like that? Since when did people have a template to what constitutes a female soul? Is everything separate now? Do young people contemplate if every part of them is male or female/ and mix and match?

What's really problematic about all this is expecting children to absorb and engage with it. She IS female. She looks female in her dress and presentation. Yet she's expecting the teenagers she teaches to engage with the complexity of her non female soul. Please.

I hope this person isn't a biology teacher, can you imagine the entertainment ... ?

@SirVixofVixHall

It is all such utter nonsense. Everyone is “non binary” , none of us “identify” only with the stereotypes of our sex. Upholding non binary means upholding regressive sex stereotypes, something women have fought against for generations. Seems essentially to have become a way for the terminally dull with no capacity for critical thought, to try and seem more interesting.

This.

I got banned from a particular social media platform for saying pretty much your last sentence.

What do people mean about when they talk about feeling their mind or soul is neither make nor female? I literally can't understand why anyone would ask themselves that question. How would you even answer something like that? Since when did people have a template to what constitutes a female soul? Is everything separate now? Do young people contemplate if every part of them is male or female/ and mix and match

Do these people imagine that sexed "souls" are somehow inserted into sexed bodies and that sometimes there's a cock-up at the factory and a boy soul is inserted into a girl body and that can be the only explanation for a female liking football and climbing trees?

[quote Ereshkigalangcleg]For a balanced view, OP if you watch PrinnyPree's video (not saying you shouldn't):

[[https://aeon.co/essays/the-idea-that-gender-is-a-spectrum-is-a-new-gender-prison]][/quote]
That essay is fantastic.

Too much effort.

My workplace has this policy of making sure everyone’s preferences are respected .... on paper.
It’s only the HR team/office staff that actually give a stuff about it because they’re fresh out of school and like to be seen as right-on, the rest of the workforce, will still banter about calling eachother a homo or a bender or calling a sporty looking woman a dyke (even if she isn’t) in front of their faces, behind their back, whenever.

It’s all theoretical unless you work in a trendy office environment or somewhere a staff member can take up the liability potential of suing a company because the canteen staff keep referring to them as ‘luv’ or ‘mate’.

You’re Sally or Bob or whatever your name is. No time to second guess whether you’re a biologically born female masquerading as a man or a lamp-post, too busy with getting on with the job.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

What is the problem with a poster of Harry Potter?

I imagine the non binary person doesn't approve of JK Rowling's views about sex and gender.

For the love of Mike ...

I am in a book discussion group and commented on someone's "review" of an anthology of stories. They said they refused to read it because one of the stories was written by an author who is a "TERF". I questioned why they felt they could review this, when they hadn't read the book, and reminded them it was a book review forum.

They posted the same "review" again and I commented on this, and again reminded them it was not a political forum.

I was told that "This is the third or fourth time you've commented on this review. It's creepy and obsessive. You may want to work on your social skills." - I hadn't commented on the review three or four times.
I was told I was "not welcome here" and "my behaviour is unacceptable".

Massive, massive attention seekers attempting to use this sort of thing with impunity.

@pancakesandsyrupplease

There's a flip side to that;
You can have short hair, love sports, be good at science and not like makeupand be female.
You can like makeup, wear pink / dresses, love art and dramaand be male

But now no you can't. If a girl presents like the one I describes above she then thinks she must also present as NB or male. Not just a female who doesn't fit traditional female stereotypes. You tell me honestly which is more progressive??

This is how I feel but maybe I am just old and not understanding properly (as my teen DD often insinuates) I feel that NB actually reinforces the stereotypes that for decades people have been trying to challenge. That "women/females" must look, speak, dress, behave, and have certain preferences and that "men/males" look, speak, dress, behave differently and have different preferences. When in the ideal world you should be able to look, speak, dress and behave however the hell you want (within legal and moral parameters) regardless of gender rather than have a "new" category.

I asked DD about someone the other day and she said they were "unlabelled" which to me doesn't make sense because that is a label.

I don’t really get why your gender has to be observed through pronouns. I personally am describing the sex of a person when I call them he/she and them/they is sexless but plural.

@Lostinafjord

I think it just means they feel neutral, neither male or female. How they dress may be because they feel a split between their body and their mind/soul? So presenting the body in a feminine way is fine to them, it's their mind/soul/sense of self that feels non-binary.

That is so far beyond ridiculous, if this is the case it's amazing how far up their own arses some people can get when trying to find something to mark themselves out as somehow special or unique

What do people mean about when they talk about feeling their mind or soul is neither make nor female?

No idea. I don't subscribe to the idea of souls; even if there were such a thing as a 'female' mind how would we know how it feels for others?

People need to get over being miss gendered. It's not that big a deal.

Being a man isn't a bad thing. Being a woman isn't a bad thing. So being called one isn't a bad thing, it's just incorrect information. Move on.

Our son is 7 and has long hair and sometimes wears a dress because he finds them comfortable. He knows he's a boy even though he doesn't conform to standard gender stereotypes and we've taught him what I've said above so he doesn't care if someone calls him a girl or says she or her to him. He just shrugs it off and gets on with his day.

I'd suggest your colleague learns to do the same.

So what issue is this actually causing them? As teacher wouldn't be present when students are referring to them by "they" pronoun ("they said we had to write an essay") so I assume the only way they know the pupils are misgendering them is if the kids call them Miss rather than Mx to address them. In which case is it a huge deal? Presumably they also call married teachers Miss rather than (usually preferred) Mrs, which is equally wrong. Male teachers called "sir" aren't actually knights, etc.

Not being disrespectful, if she was actually being discriminated against obviously you need to stop it, but if the only issue is kids sometimes forgetting and saying Miss rather than Mx (which sound very similar anyway) then surely the teacher needs to do nothing more than correct them each time? Aren't kids generally very accepting of non binary identities? If the other non binary teachers are addressed how they like to be then surely its just the kids forgetting occasionally, which if they have multiple teachers (I had at least 10) they shouldn't be shamed for!

Agree with everyone who has said that this person sounds a bit problematic and attention seeking. And that gender identities are generally very regressive in terms of sex stereotyping. I hardly ever wear dresses/skirts or makeup. Does that mean I am male really?

As a slight aside, is there still a differentiation in schools between Mrs/Miss? Whereas men are still just ‘Mr’ or ‘Sir’?

Its a shame that so many young people fell the need to go to all this trouble, and insist that others go to the trouble of trying to understand this nonsense just so they can be seen as "different". Could they not just stick to getting a new haircut/peircing/ have a quirky dress sense?

Yes @UsernameIsNotAvailableRightNow

I agree you can label yourself and feel any way you want to but just dont force it on others a bit like forcing god down someone’s throat. Some people will happily comply others think it’s nonsense some sensible advice on how to handle the situation.

@crochetmonkey74
Report the poster comment to the head teacher. Keep that list growing.

I am feeling a bit intimidated and like I need to walk on eggshells

This is how this movement wants you to feel.

If this person presents as feminine it is hardly surprising that people refer to them as female. It may come as a surprise to them, but themselves and their identity are not foremost on other people's minds. Therefore people are quite likely to not think to correct their experience of their person as female before they speak in normal conversation.

In a sane world you would be able to tell this person that their constant need to police other people's words and thoughts is starting to border on harassment.

[quote Abigail12345654321]@crochetmonkey74
Report the poster comment to the head teacher. Keep that list growing.[/quote]
And stick up a picture of Cormoran Strike for good measure.