Dads joining coffee group

[CaptainMyCaptainn]

So I strongly suspect I’m being UR and probably need a resounding yes to give me a head wobble.

A weekly coffee / lunch meet up in a pub for mums started a few months ago. It was advertised as mums and mums to be and it’s been a great space to meet other mums and talk about everything from boobs and PND to holidays.

Someone recently asked if there’s a similar group for dads and then all of a sudden, dads were being added to the WhatsApp group and have started to come. Today, one came on his own as he left sleeping baby at home with mum. I personally think it changes the dynamic to have men but I think I’m being UR here. Just hoping that whilst I’m UR, it’s understandable.

Just to add, there are dads who come to other baby groups I go to and it’s completely ok, and I happily chat to them. But it’s this particular one where it’s more of a support group that feels uncomfortable.

I wish there was more equality in raising children between men and women. There won’t be if men feel that they’re invading women’s spaces for attending a parenting group and that they’re somehow weird for wanting to go.

It sounds like you viewed it as a support group but others viewed it as a parenting group so added men thinking they would be welcome.

How big is the group on any given week? If it’s big-ish I expect that there’s usually several conversations happening at once about different topics. Sometimes you might find yourself in a group that lends itself to talking about the topics that you might need support with and sometimes you won’t, but I don’t think the dads are BU in attending.

Notmenotme - I don’t see why a dad can’t be there .... Also I get that some groups may be places where women want to talk about say the birth etc. that sort of business

You answered your own question in the same post there :)

DragonMovie - I wish there was more equality in raising children between men and women. There won’t be if men feel that they’re invading women’s spaces for attending a parenting group and that they’re somehow weird for wanting to go.

There wont be equality between men and women doing child raising unless men can join parenting groups without feeling weird? I would argue that's putting the cart before the horse.

When more men do more parenting there will gradually be more men in parenting groups and then it wont feel as weird.

No man needs to feel welcome in a women's group for support post birth. I think everyone here has agreed on that one though.

It's also really important that women can attend a baby group without their partner as some women need to get away from them and potentially tell someone else what is going on at home, due to the amount of domestic abuse that starts in pregnancy.

@Snow1n

The thing is that it is females who go through pregnancy, childbirth and breast feeding, and it is usual to want to discuss what you've been through, much of which you only want to discuss with others who have been through similar experiences. So while Dads do need support, they can get that elsewhere, a Dad's group perhaps. I certainly would not have discusses my cracked nipples or torn perineum with males around, and Im sure Dads probably want to discuss the lack of sex, tips on how to genuinely get out of dealing with night wakings and other such areas that Dad's experience during their partner's pregnancy and childbirth etc.

Absolutely agree.

I'd not want to share these sorts of things with men. I'd want to do it in a safe space.

@Laiste definitely agree that no man needs to be welcomed into a women’s group.

Re the horse before the cart thing: I do think that childcare is viewed as women’s work by society and parenting by dads needs to be normalised in lots of different contexts. An extreme and not directly related example: my partner (DS’ dad) took my DS for some vaccinations a couple of years ago and was told the GP wouldn’t do it as he needed consent from me. I was at work. It seems that the GP was unprepared for such a wholly backward family setup (sarcasm intended).

Another example: school drop offs are almost all mums or at least women. Birthday parties are attended mainly by mums. Coffee mornings - mainly mums. A lot of this is complex and multi factorial (eg employment inequality) but if we as a society embrace the message that men are expected to parent from day 1 then we can’t also exclude men from parenting groups unless there is a reason - eg it’s a support/women’s issues group. And if that’s the case I personally think it should be made clear. Otherwise it passively sends the message that childcare is women’s work and men are not expected or welcome to contribute. I find it backwards and contrary to the greater cause.

@Notmenotme

I find this sex divide usually very strange to be honest but I am a gay man in a same sex relationship with two kids. I’ve been very welcomed into every “mums” group I’ve been to and nobody has ever said a group is only for mums and babies but I guess our children were 6 months + when they came to us so we weren’t going to baby baby groups.

I don’t see why a dad can’t be there and why men are so awful - a lot of women do end up having babies with men. I do however find it very strange that he’s there without the mum and the baby!!!! That’s ridiculous - presumably a baby of that age would be taken to the group asleep anyway.

If I had an hour away from my children I’d get my hair cut, or I’d go for a run! I wouldn’t go to the baby group!!! Bizarre!!!

Also I get that some groups may be places where women want to talk about say the birth etc. that sort of business - and maybe this group is that - so maybe he shouldn’t be there!! But then it should be advertised as that and the group leader should tell him!

OP didn’t suggest men are awful and I don’t think anyone else on the thread has.

The group was clearly set up for mums so the OP’s feelings are valid. If on the other hand it was set up for parents then it would be completely unreasonable for her to object to the presence of a man.

If I saw a parenting group set up for same sex/ male parents it wouldn’t cross my mind to attend (without my baby?!) as I’m a heterosexual woman. It also wouldn’t cross my mind to think that the organisers or anyone who objected to my theoretical attendance thinks heterosexual women are awful.

I’m glad you’ve been welcomed into the mum groups you’ve attended. I would only add that women are generally socialised very early on into being polite and accepting of situations they feel uncomfortable in rather than risk offending someone’s feelings. So there may be women who do not fully welcome your presence but would never dream of speaking up.

That man knew the group was aimed at women. He was making a point. You can tell when it's a dads' group as it's a) held on a Saturday and b) has bacon sandwiches.

At least that's how it works round here.

Even my not-above-making-a-point DH managed to find another bloke friend with baby to do park and coffee with once a week when DD was a baby.

I could not find the mums' group on a Saturday with bacon sandwiches, sadly.

Yanbu. With one of the dads there it would be way more difficult to open up about body changes, PND, relationship issues. It just changes the dynamic. It is absolutely acceptable for women to want a space that is just ours. This dad could surely create his own group.

It may well be the case that dads want/need a parenting group but it is not the responsibility of women to provide it. YANBU, OP. If it's a group for mums, let the dads sort out their own group

God how infuriating. There’s no bloody escape. It’s ok to be women only. New mums and pregnant women might want to discuss personal FEMALE things. But no. Some twat has to be included.

It's not just the man or men with a problem though. It's also the women who are aghast at the suggestion that anything exists that men might want being denied them.

YANBU My dh would run a mile from this and is a very hands on dad.

How are we ever going to get anything approaching equality in childcare if men, including SAHDs or men on SPL are blocked from groups like this. We had dads in our equivalent group and many of us welcomed the opportunity to talk about a broader range of topics.

There’s nothing wrong with female only spaces for support.
That said, whoever is in charge has made a decision to include men and turn a mum weekly meet into a parent weekly meet. So if you’re uncomfortable you’re choices are to start a spin off mum only group that you are in charge of, and either stop going to the parent one or keep going and accept its change in direction.

It’s made complicated by there being no organiser as such. It was originally set up by the manager of the wine bar. She then left the business but it’s become a weekly thing where the wine bar give free hot drinks but that’s pretty much it - no one really runs it. The wine bar simply still honour the set up.

I don’t see why a dad can’t be there and why men are so awful - a lot of women do end up having babies with men.

Why do you interpret women wanting a space for themselves as a comment on the awfulness of men. Which do think is more likely:

1. Women who had recently given birth formed a group just for them because they hate men.
2. Women who had recently given birth formed a group to support each other by sharing experiences that only women who have given birth can relate to.

Sometimes women do things for themselves, not to spite men. Men are not the motivating factor in every choice women make.

@FOJN

I don’t see why a dad can’t be there and why men are so awful - a lot of women do end up having babies with men.

Why do you interpret women wanting a space for themselves as a comment on the awfulness of men. Which do think is more likely:

1. Women who had recently given birth formed a group just for them because they hate men.
2. Women who had recently given birth formed a group to support each other by sharing experiences that only women who have given birth can relate to.

Sometimes women do things for themselves, not to spite men. Men are not the motivating factor in every choice women make.

Well said.

Also stunned at the suggestion that women think men are so awful but we still have babies with them - said by a man obviously.

@CaptainMyCaptainn

It’s made complicated by there being no organiser as such. It was originally set up by the manager of the wine bar. She then left the business but it’s become a weekly thing where the wine bar give free hot drinks but that’s pretty much it - no one really runs it. The wine bar simply still honour the set up.

Do you know if any of the other women feel the same as you? Could you organise your own group with the ones you're closer to that is just for mums?

The only other option would be saying something on the group, but as you can see it might not be received well and the wives of the men attending could become very defensive.

@DragonMovie i agree with everything you've said. A societal shift means change.

That's bloody weird that the GP wouldn't accept parental consent from the child's father! Is that here in UK?

There is a couple of SAHDads in DD4s year (yr3) and i have often wondered how it's been for them on the social front. One of them has a little girl who is DDs good friend.

Just before (bloody) covid kicked in they were starting to do little playdates with classmates. The SAHD invited DD4 over to play one day for an hour after school. They were reception age, so too young to just drop off and leave, so i was going to be staying. I wouldn't have thought twice if it was a mum, but i confess i felt weird coming inviting myself in for coffee with the dad! Bloody silly! We did it and it was fine. Perhaps other people will think i sound daft, and i do! but these tiny social changes is what we need to get used to.

expand the current group to include mums and dads. I expect dads feel just as isolated and lonely and would be glad of the company, and somewhere to talk about kid related stuff.

Start a new mums (and mums to be) only group. You will probably get different people coming to both groups.

@wouldthatbeworse

How are we ever going to get anything approaching equality in childcare if men, including SAHDs or men on SPL are blocked from groups like this. We had dads in our equivalent group and many of us welcomed the opportunity to talk about a broader range of topics.

I don't think anyone has suggested blocking men from general parenting groups though.

A group for women specifically to talk about personal issues is a different thing though.

I think the OPs situation is tricky because it was never really clear at the start and drifted a bit.

Yanbu as it was originally a mums group. I think based on that, someone should say something.

@wouldthatbeworse

How are we ever going to get anything approaching equality in childcare if men, including SAHDs or men on SPL are blocked from groups like this. We had dads in our equivalent group and many of us welcomed the opportunity to talk about a broader range of topics.

many of us welcomed the opportunity to talk about a broader range of topics

You needed a man for that?