Is 12am too late to be hanging around outside for 15 year olds ?

[GreekGod]

Over the weekend, four of our DD friends all 15 years old were involved in an awful accident and two of the girls are still in intensive care and they are in a critical condition. This has shook our community to the core and I just can't stop thinking about the parents who we know really well. Basically a car driven by an 18 year old at a great speed who just got his license hit two of the girls and the other two had minor injuries. The accident happened outside a coffee shop that is full of teenagers every Saturday night (13 to 16 year olds). My DD was also going to go out that evening to the same place but cancelled at the last minute as we were invited out to a family birthday meal. The accident happened at 12am on Sunday morning and today at the school there was a general discussion by some of the parents saying that they would never allow their children out that late and that the accident would never happened at an earlier time. They talked about attacks and rapes, joyriding and all sorts. We do allow DD out that late. She is a good kid, achieves excellent grades and is very respectful. She is also mature for her age. But it got me thinking. Are we wrong in allowing a 15 year old out at 12am in a group outside in a town with other 15 year olds? My DD could have quite easily been in intensive care herself and I now feel awfully guilty in giving her this freedom that could harm her ? I am so confused. AIBU in allowing a 15 year old to stay out till after 12am ?

No definitely not. Not in UK, not in S France ( only S European country I have proper knowledge of.)

The only time most youngsters are out like that in S F is because the whole family is with them. The locals would think that the very, very few 15 year olds out in a cafe in even small towns/villages are being neglected and at risk. ( As Op mentioned in her post.) Cafe culture or not.

Now, students 18-25 maybe, though many more students live at home in F than in UK and their families keep a close eye on them as a rule.

My DS would be allowed out that late if at a specific place, presumably it could have happened anywhere. I insist he is not to be walking around that late but can go to specific places. It could happen if they were coming out of a house party I guess so I can't see how there is any connection to how late it was. Guess it depends what they were doing out in the street?

Still irrelevant what they were doing if on the pavement and being safe. Even if they weren't then it's still an awful tragedy. We had a nasty accident near us the other week, 18 yo female hit by a bus in front of her group of friends. 1030pm near a popular nightlife spot. Just horrific but was only 1030 so the time is completely irrelevant IMO.

Yes it's too late, but accidents can happen at any time and it's awful to blame the parents of two kids who were just... at a coffee shop at night (weird a coffee shop is open so late).

It's not the time that harmed them. But I would say that's very late for a young teen.

@PugInTheHouse - oh my goodness, that's so awful.

@GreekGod yes so so sad, the poor friends who were there and saw it, how on earth do you ever get over something like that.

No, I would not allow my 15 year old to be out that late. A very occasional party at a private address with an arranged pick up time of 12am yes, hanging round in town/at a cafe - definitely & absolutely not.

I think that's a pretty massive drip feed to be honest. In the UK the only places still open at midnight are the pubs, there are few adults on the streets, it's always dark and it's pretty much always cold. That is very different from a cafe culture where there are people around and places still open that are reliably not alcohol focused.

That's like when people were surprised I'd let my younger childwalk to school in the city, where yes there was more traffic but there were lollipop ladies and a stream of children moving in the same direction, but I started walking him when we moved to the country where it was a quiet walk without any other people around.

That all said, people shouldn't be criticising the parents - that's a very rare situation.

If a group of 15 year olds want to be out at that time then they are up to no good. What else can they be possibly doing? What time do they get home? Do they not go to school? And if so they must be knackered for school. Be a parent not a friend!

Agree @MaChienEstUnDick. Totally different culture. Lots of people around and outside late at night. The cafes sound pleasant, the OP has said the youngsters don’t drink.

It’s completely different in your average British town, where the weather is too cold for most of the year to be able to hang around outside, and people who are just standing around in the street very late at night are likely to be drinking or up to some sort of mischief (unless they’re waiting for a bus!)

None of this has any relevance though to the accident, which could have happened at any time of day.

Yeah, but OP is saying that the other parents at the school gates were opining that the kid's shouldn't be out that late. Presumably those other mums at the school gates are familiar with that happens in their country?

Exactly. Seems strange to be looking for confirmation from MN (largely U.K. based) when the mums in that Country have already said it is too late.

@Filthyslattern

Mine are 18 and 21 and there is no WAY they would ever have been allowed to do this. Not a chance. Ever.

Mine are so much younger and will definitely not be allowed to do this when they are older. There's a time for this, not at 15yo.

@TheDoveFromAboveCooCoo

15 is way way too young for 12am shenanigans!! That's really lax parenting in my book.

And this! They are children!!!

Sorry - I didn't see earlier that it was a warm country cafe culture. If so:

Yes, it is ok to be out with the others then, at a cafe with no alcohol and in a non-alcoholic culture.

You couldn't, as you say, single her out snd stop her. Lots of well-behaved, non-drinking ok teens are doing it. It's the culture.

You can though tell her not to get in a car with anyone.

And reinforce the no alcohol (/drugs) rule.

In the UK they'd all be blotto by 7.30 and at least one in a and e by 10pm. In the UK I wouldn't let a 15 year old anywhere in the evening apart from a friend's house.

Sorry - I didn't see earlier that it was a warm country cafe culture. If so:

Yes, it is ok to be out with the others then, at a cafe with no alcohol and in a non-alcoholic culture.

You couldn't, as you say, single her out snd stop her. Lots of well-behaved, non-drinking ok teens are doing it. It's the culture.

Strange then that the parents at the school gate also live in and understand “the culture” and are saying it’s not right.

Also bizarre that seemingly the only reason people think a 15 year old shouldn’t be hanging around with mates at midnight is because they will (apparently) almost certainly get drunk. What world are you creating for our teenagers?

@caringcarer

My 15 year old boy is in bed at 10pm. Over school holidays 10.30pm latest. He could go to cinema with late finish up to 10pm.

That won't last! In less than 3 years he will be an adult.

It's far too late, as a teenager myself those who were hanging around late at night were generally up to no good. However, leaving school at 16 I was djing ar raves by 18 and living independently.

I used to pick my eldest up from the school disco at 9 or 10 pm.
She wasn't allowed to hang around anywhere and her friends were vetted.

I think middle and older teenagers do need to have fun and learn how to handle responsibility by loosening the reins of parental authority slowly.

The time she's allowed out until is up to you, but accidents of that nature unfortunately aren't restricted to after midnight.

Some years ago a family friend of ours was killed by a drunk driver, along with another two members of his family. It was 7.30pm.

The two issues are completely separate. Having her home by 9pm wouldn't necessarily prevent such a tragic (but thankfully unlikely) accident occurring, but it may prevent or make other issues she's vulnerable to less likely.

@GreekGod

Thank you so much for all your comments. I should add that we no longer live in the UK but in a Southern European country where "cafe society" is very normal till quite late and the crime rate is very low in our town. But still I fully take on board all your points as to her age. She is such a respectful and well behaved kid but still I now need to rethink as very valid points have been made.

Yes, the coffee shop was open and the teenagers gather there and have coffee and milkshakes etc.

I think this is fine and not what a lot of folk here will understand

Too late, always boys driving too fast, very stupid

@Thunderpunt

Very lucky *@SirChenjins* Friday night a local 16 year,olds birthday party ended prematurely as she'd got so drunk and passed out, her parents quietly but firmly had to ask everyone else to leave....and many of them were worse for wear. And that isn't an unusual situation in our leafy Home Counties middle class suburb (and I say that to point out it's supposed to be a 'naice' area not to brag) It's shocking but very common. The pub culture bit was probably a stretch I grant you...

I’m not saying it doesn’t happen - I’ve been through 2 teen years and going through my third, I’m very well aware of what goes on - but your description of binge drinking, pub going 15 year olds was a bit OTT! The majority of them are engaged in sports etc, with the odd party at that age.

No way would my daughter be out after 9 at age 15.
I live on a high street. I've seen young girls harassed by drunk men once the pubs clear out. Young girls laying in the street. Crying at bus stops with some feckless random bloke chatting them up.

It's just not safe.

@ImInStealthMode

The time she's allowed out until is up to you, but accidents of that nature unfortunately aren't restricted to after midnight.

Some years ago a family friend of ours was killed by a drunk driver, along with another two members of his family. It was 7.30pm.

The two issues are completely separate. Having her home by 9pm wouldn't necessarily prevent such a tragic (but thankfully unlikely) accident occurring, but it may prevent or make other issues she's vulnerable to less likely.

I'm not sure I agree with the idea that events happen randomly all the time. They do, however, variables do contribute to increased risk, regular groupings of teenagers and older teenagers present quite a risk to one another especially as the night wears on. Add in alcohol, motor vehicles, hormones, and viola you have prime ingredients for the swiss cheese effect. People use the same argument for affairs on this forum, which is also incorrect as circumstantial-situational events lead to outcomes.

It's an analysis of risk-benefit, teenagers can behave in a risky manner, it's much better to control this time period with a shorter burst of non-parental leisure time.

I have teenagers op. I think the scenario you've described - a cafe with lots of others the same age I would allow it especially as you are also her picking up. How awful if some of the parents to be so judgemental at a time like this. I hope teenagers injured make it through OK.

Depends.

Mid week on a school night, no, it's far too late.

Weekends, given that they are at a specific destination of a cafe, rather than just hanging about in a park, then I think it seems ok.