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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Not all men..

479 replies

Jenna19871 · 05/02/2022 23:18

Spoke to DH about this tonight and he said ‘it’s not all men though is it?’

He’s right. It’s not all men. But I have experienced so much shit that wouldn’t be accepted nowadays (not tragic shit but just not acceptable)

At 19 my drink was drugged with rohypnol in the local night club, thankfully I didn’t drink it as it tasted ‘sour’. It was caught on CCTV. The man was banned for 2 weeks. 2 weeks!!!

I’ve taken the tube and had men put their hands on my butt/legs etc with me trying to move away. I didn’t shout, I should have!

None of these are awful stories but it just goes to show that when people say it’s not all men...but it is most women.

OP posts:
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5
Lunar27 · 12/02/2022 07:00

@JerryBean

It's definitely a case of picking your battles and I too have experienced blokes on a night out passing unsavoury comments at my wife.

If I were of a different temperament I'd probably get involved in a fight as the most likely outcome of correcting a man/men like this wouldn't be, "ah ok mate, I didn't realise this was so offensive, I'll amend my behaviour from now on". The issue I have with this approach is:

a). Violence doesn't generally teach anyone anything, so doesn't further the cause (however satisfying!).

b). Male violence is the problem in the first place. Therefore, directing it at another man isn't exactly helping society in general. Self defense as a last resort sure, but displays of chivalry, no.

In this kind of scenario I'll accept I'm part of the problem. However, it really is a problem as those types of men are often on the extreme part of the spectrum.

@CallItLoneliness It does bother me yes but in the meantime I'd appreciate opinions on what men should do in these situations.

@Random65 I'm sorry but your assertion that the English language works 'that way' isn't really true. We have countless everyday examples that are similar to, 'men rape women' and you just don't see people getting upset.

"UK motorists face record fuel prices as global oil costs rise" NAM tho, cos I drive an EV innit (I do actually so escape all this).

"UK families hit by soaring cost of living'

'Thieves target the vulnerable'

'Men outearn women by 2 to 1'

"Met Police rotten to the core" oh wait Grin.

You get the picture right? Language just doesn't work that way. I'm not mansplaining so am happy to be corrected. But the way I see it, NAMALT isn't something that decent men say in defense of all the good men out there. It's a BS statement that seeks to derail or detract from a far more important issue being discussed.

JerryBean · 12/02/2022 07:38

[quote CallItLoneliness]**@JerryBean* Of course, when I suspect a crime may be committed my view will change and I will be more willing to put myself in personal risk. doesn't it bother you that verbally harassing women in the street isn't* a crime, even though it is designed to frighten and intimidate them?[/quote]
To clarify - my understanding (as a lawyer) is that verbally attacking someone with the intent to harass or distress is an offence (common assault). There are obviously grey areas there, but for the most part they are crimes, but my comment about having to judge the situation still applies unfortunately for ones own (and loved ones) personal safety. I once spoke up and nearly got into a fight with someone who insulted my wife - she wasn't too impressed with me losing my cool after because it could have descended into a trip to the hospital. Really depends on circumstances.

I think the real issue is that even if you reported verbal abuse on the street to police, the enforcement side of things will let you down: lack of evidence, lack of police resources (or willpower) to deal with verbal altercations etc. I think that is definitely something to be bothered about sadly.

ButterMeTimbers · 12/02/2022 07:44

It's an asshole problem, not a men problem. I don't hang out with assholes, or go places I'm likely to encounter them.

Places I have encountered asshole's sexually threatening behaviour:

  • my own home
  • someone else's home
  • work/office (posh London variety)
  • swimming pool (in middle class London village)
  • restaurant (of the upmarket variety)
  • walking down a main street at 4pm (I was 13)
  • walking through town centre at 11am ('posh' market town variety)
  • several night clubs
  • a family park (middle of the day)

And more I will have forgotten about now, drowned out by all the others. In at least six of those places other people were present who did not notice or dismissed it as something they didn't need to get involved in.

There is nowhere that is safe from assholes and therefore nowhere to feel totally safe.

I'm a petty bullish person. I am the friend that is called when someone feels scared or alone. When the next door neighbour tried to batter down the door of our student house, it was me everyone woke to deal with it.

And still my life has been littered with worrying what will happen if I turn this asshole down. How will I reject him and stay safe. How will I get home without being attacked - and not just at night. So much of my life adjusted and the things I want to do set aside because - to put it bluntly - someone might rape me or murder me, or both.

As I get older I worry less for me and start to burn with a fierce sense of injustice for those that come after me and will still face this shit.

Those of you with daughters: I almost guarantee they will be sexually assaulted at some point in their lives. At some point, no matter what they do or where they go, they will face this. Because it's a very rare women that doesn't. That's fucking depressing.

Nomoreusernames1244 · 12/02/2022 07:55

If you say "Men rape women" it by definition insinuates that all men do, that's how the english language works. Yes, a lot of men might take offence at that. People don't like being called rapists. So, yes, some will respond with NAMALT

How many men nag or sulk if their partners say no.

How many men have sex with the really drunk girl, she seems into it, right?

How many men grab their partners boobs or bum while she’s cooking dinner, and when asked not to get annoyed because they’re “only being nice”.

How many men touch their sleeping partner, some of them might wait for her to wake up before having sex, some don’t.

How many men will persistently touch their wives, telling them they now they like it. Until she realises slipping their hands away and saying no won’t stop them and gives in because it’ll be over quicker.

Ime it is all men. And more women than you think are having sex when they don’t want to as it’s easier than saying no.

Random65 · 12/02/2022 08:16

[quote Awalkintime]**@Random65
How would you feel if every pub you went into you felt a MAN grope you or make sexual comments about you? Remember this is not about sexual attraction as neither is sexual assault so you'd not feel anything or feel bothered if it was men doing it to you in the pubs?[/quote]
I've had similar behaviour to me from women. As I already stated.

Not sure what your statement has to do with anything I've said.

Also, never been in a pub where I've seen any man behave like that. You must go in some absolute sh**holes if you are subject to that behaviour in every pub. Like I said before, probably the only time I've seen anyone get grabby was in rough nightclubs when I was far younger, and the ladies were just as likely to be doing it as the men. And men or women would be kicked out by door staff for it if it was reported.

What happens when you tell the staff what happened? I'd assume they'd very likely throw the man out and bar them.

Nomoreusernames1244 · 12/02/2022 08:23

Also, never been in a pub where I've seen any man behave like that. You must go in some absolute shholes if you are subject to that behaviour in every pub. Like I said before, probably the only time I've seen anyone get grabby was in rough nightclubs when I was far younger, and the ladies were just as likely to be doing it as the men. And men or women would be kicked out by door staff for it if it was reported

And here we have the problem.

I’ve never seen it so it doesn’t happen, no matter how many women tell me it does.

I’ve never seen it, if it does happen it’s your fault for going to the wrong places/wearing the wrong clothes.

@Random65. Every been on the tube? Not really a place that can be avoided, and a place millions of women have stated they have been assaulted, groped, rubbed up against…

Do you deny that also?

cuno · 12/02/2022 08:31

@Random65
You are incredibly selective with the posts you choose to respond to, and even then you don't give careful and serious consideration to whatever post you cherrypick out of the multiple you have been tagged in. So many women are raising so many great points which you choose to ignore but then you keep repeating the same rubbish, even though we have already addressed the points you raised. It just goes hand in hand with your wider attitude towards women's experiences, whereby you turn a blind eye and pretend you don't see it.

I also find it bizarre that you insist you are sexually harassed and assaulted by women on nights out, but you don't see men doing it to women and therefore it's not a problem. So are you claiming that the problem lies with women and actually there is a massive problem with women as a group sexually assaulting men en masse and our claims about men are exaggerated as you see no evidence of it?

Nomoreusernames1244 · 12/02/2022 08:34

Also, never been in a pub where I've seen any man behave like that

I’ve never been in a pub and seen someone tell a black man to “go home”.

Therefore it doesn’t happen.

Or if it does, they must be going to some really rough EDL hangouts.

See the problem @Random65?

DolphinFC · 12/02/2022 08:51

@ButterMeTimbers

It's an asshole problem, not a men problem. I don't hang out with assholes, or go places I'm likely to encounter them.

Places I have encountered asshole's sexually threatening behaviour:

  • my own home
  • someone else's home
  • work/office (posh London variety)
  • swimming pool (in middle class London village)
  • restaurant (of the upmarket variety)
  • walking down a main street at 4pm (I was 13)
  • walking through town centre at 11am ('posh' market town variety)
  • several night clubs
  • a family park (middle of the day)

And more I will have forgotten about now, drowned out by all the others. In at least six of those places other people were present who did not notice or dismissed it as something they didn't need to get involved in.

There is nowhere that is safe from assholes and therefore nowhere to feel totally safe.

I'm a petty bullish person. I am the friend that is called when someone feels scared or alone. When the next door neighbour tried to batter down the door of our student house, it was me everyone woke to deal with it.

And still my life has been littered with worrying what will happen if I turn this asshole down. How will I reject him and stay safe. How will I get home without being attacked - and not just at night. So much of my life adjusted and the things I want to do set aside because - to put it bluntly - someone might rape me or murder me, or both.

As I get older I worry less for me and start to burn with a fierce sense of injustice for those that come after me and will still face this shit.

Those of you with daughters: I almost guarantee they will be sexually assaulted at some point in their lives. At some point, no matter what they do or where they go, they will face this. Because it's a very rare women that doesn't. That's fucking depressing.

What does middle class have to do with this?

Please justify your use of this phrase. You are implying that you view working class people as inherently more unpleasant.

Random65 · 12/02/2022 08:52

[quote cuno]@Random65

I know you weren't responding to me, but everything you say in this thread rubs me the wrong way so I'm going to respond to you anyway!

It doesn't bother me, I was just pointing out why the message won't go over well.
Oh, so you were mansplaining to us silly little women how we are the ones who have got it twisted? Gotcha!

I'm not telling any woman to do anything. Just pointing out that there are better ways to go about the way you say things.
You think it's better to go off and log everything officially with police, HR and whatever else you deemed appropriate in your previous posts, so we can then shut our traps and not bother men like you with the reality of our experiences? The police don't want to know, the prosecution and conviction rates are at an all time low, and many companies don't have qualms about sacking women they see as troublemakers. Trust me, I've been to tribunal because I was punished for speaking out against discrimination!

The sex with power? Men will always be physically stronger. What are you expecting men to do? Cut their arms off?
No, we are not asking men to cut their arms off, bizarre how you could jump to that conclusion! But I guess that would be a man's violent solution to it if the roles were reversed here. And it's more than just physical strength, men have held power over us in every sense for centuries! This has already been pointed out to you, but you chose to gloss over it. Whatever makes you feel comfortable I guess.

If you say "Men rape women" it by definition insinuates that all men do, that's how the english language works. Yes, a lot of men might take offence at that. People don't like being called rapists. So, yes, some will respond with NAMALT.
We also say humans have two legs and two arms, but believe it or not some humans are missing an arm or a leg or don't have any limbs at all! Also white people enslaved black people, does that mean every single white person enslaved a black person? Clearly you need to go back to English lessons, although I think it's common sense you're lacking. And it's not just that men rape women, it's that almost all men who don't do the raping are still partaking in or benefiting from a culture amongst their sex that has an unwritten unspoken rule that we as women are inferior. And this can manifest in many ways other than rape.

I've been sexually harassed and inappropriately touched by women. Are all women responsible for the behaviour of those women?
No because as stated by people time and time again, there isn't an endemic of men being sexually assaulted, raped, beaten, killed and so on by misandrist women. Also for centuries and still to this day men hold the power over women. There is a massive power imbalance at play here. Isn't it like 99.8% of sex offenders are male?! Women doing this are by far the exception and so unique and extraordinary. Can't say the same for males, unfortunately!

If you think men get listened to when those things happen then I've got a bridge to sell you.
Oh for fuck's sake, but it's MEN who aren't listening! MEN. It's your TOXIC culture that has deemed it wrong to be sexually assaulted by women. We were not the ones to create those rules, that's entirely the patriarchy which is harmful for not just women BUT MEN TOO.

Suggesting that "men" as a group are responsible for the behaviour of some other knuckle dragging men they probably don't even know is ridiculous. I'd lay blame at the door of their families and community they grew up in.
The idea that it's just some knuckle dragging minority doing all the raping and killing and whatever else of women is laughable! Perfectly ordinary men with perfectly ordinary jobs, with wives and children, with lots of friends and respected and adored by many, are also raping and killing women (including said wives). Lay the blame at their families and communities? So we should just blame their mums right for raising wronguns? And society does have a lot to answer for, but that's because we live in a patriarchal society that has been ran by men for centuries.[/quote]
You lost me at mansplaining. Saying that in an attempt to shut down my opinion or thoughts as less valid is a pretty poor tactic in debate. Try playing the ball, not the man.

Yes, I think women (and men) should report all inappropriate sexual behaviour. If nobody knows something has happened then nothing can be done about it. I certainly can't do anything, as previously stated I can't remember seeing men groping ladies or saying anything inappropriate, probably due to the professional and social circles I mix in.

A select few people have held all the power, not all of them men. At least from a legal perspective, women have as many rights as men. Discrimination is illegal, and if people don't speak up then change doesn't happen. I've taken employers to two tribunals myself and won both. Most companies treat all staff like disposable crap, the more they do it the more money they make. Unfortunately, with things like maternity leave and women often being primary carers, it does give employers a financial incentive to discriminate more. I'm a single father and have been very lucky to have understanding employers, but I had to deliberately limit my career options to stay with a more understanding company for 7 years while my boys were younger.

I think maybe it's you that needs an english lesson. That statement is inclusive of all men, unless they are excluded, which that statement does not. How exactly do you think I benefit from some culture that belittles women or promotes their abuse? That's not a culture I recognise or grew up in. It's not a culture I see amongst any of my family, friends, colleagues or acquaintances. I know that those views do exist in some communities, but not in any circles I mix in.

I was married for 10+ years. I was assaulted by my wife multiple times. I never raised a hand to her. Not even once. Not even when she hit me or grabbed a knife. I never forced my self on her. She tried to force herself on me quite a few times. I'm not convinced that women also doing this is anywhere near as much of a rare occurrence as you think.

I don't recognise any toxic culture in the men that I know or associate with. I don't have any responsibility for other men behaving like that, as I do not encourage or condone such behaviour, and would challenge it if I saw it. There isn't some organised attempt to supress or oppress women, but there is definitely some social groups where men act that way. Probably most religions also perpetuate such narrow minded views on women, for most of them it's literally in their holy books.

I didn't say blame the mums. I said blame families and community. I am a single father to two boys. It's my responsibility to raise them in an environment where those views aren't perpetuated.

You make it sound like there is wholesale raping and pillaging going on. I don't know anyone even accused of rape. In the distant past a friend of a friend was accused and was ostracised from the social group.

So, what % of men do you think grope women?
What % of men do you think rape women?

SuperSleepyBaby · 12/02/2022 09:12

.

Not all men..
Awalkintime · 12/02/2022 09:12

Random65
It happens in every pub in my town and every pub in every town and city I've ever been in by MEN. In fact it happens almost everywhere - shops, the bus, train, at the supermarket etc. It happened everywhere.
Nothing happens if you tell the staff. They don't throw anyone out at all. They blame the victim just like you are doing.

Funny you admit now it happens yet you didn't do anything about it like you stay silent about it now. You only are vocal towards those who are saying very loud that this happens and happens often. You are telling them to be quiet.

You are part of the problem dismissing women and telling them they can't talk about something that impacts on them throughout their lives and trying to change the conversation towards something else.

99.7% of women get sexually assaulted multiple times. That is not by a minority. You are part of the problem.

Could you please send me a link to your campaign you have to support men who get groped by women? I'll happily support it. If you don't have a campaign then I assume you don't really care enough and only pipe up to silence women and show your power in the same way other men do.

Furbulousnous · 12/02/2022 09:16

Tell him to fuck off to the back end of fuck with his not all men bollocks.
It’s too many men. TOO many. And tell him to read this thread. I don’t know a single woman who hasn’t experienced assault, or sexual harassment,
In their lives. NOT ONE. So that’s too many men, isn’t it?

Nomoreusernames1244 · 12/02/2022 09:16

So, what % of men do you think grope women?
What % of men do you think rape women?

Inside of a relationship? The vast majority.

If you even read my previous post ime it’s entirely normal for men to think it’s ok to grab their partners whenever they want, because they see a relationship as a “free pass”. Same with sex, within a relationship men feel it’s ok to sulk, coerce or persist with demands for sex until she gives in to shut him up.

I am sorry for what you went through with your wife. We are all aware it happens, and yes it is wrong.

What we are trying to get through to you is being groped or assaulted is a pretty much everyday occurrence for women. In the street, at home, on a bus. And we don’t speak up because we fear the physical strength of men, that we might offend the wrong one who follows us home and rapes or murders us for calling us out.

Women causing serious physical harm to men is unusual. A woman being able to drag a man off the street and sexually assault him is unheard of.

TracyMosby · 12/02/2022 09:20

You make it sound like there is wholesale raping and pillaging going on. I don't know anyone even accused of rape.
Thats the actual fucking problem. There is. I do not know one women who has not been seuxually harassed or assaulted by a man. Not one. Almost all rape accusations end with no conviction. What would be the point anymore of going through the trauma of a police investigation knowing that there is very, very little chance of the rapist having any sort of consequence, when we also know misogyny is rife in the police force?

You said you dont know anyone accused of rape. That does not mean you do not know a rapist.

SpinsForGin · 12/02/2022 09:26

Random65 why are you still assuming that it's only a certain type of man in a certain type of place that harasses/rapes/murders women?
You are wrong.

My most recent encounter was in a very nice cocktail bar in a very affluent area. There was a group of men who were well dressed and splashing the cash and they chose to position themselves near the ladies toilets so that you had to walk through them to get there. It was so intimidating as they made comments as you walked through. The bar staff couldn't care less.

When I left some of them were outside having a smoke and one grabbed me and pushed my head towards his crotch and told me to 'suck his dick'. Everyone around him just laughed.

These men were probably professionals, from nice families and probably had wives and girlfriends at home.

You need to address your assumptions because it's making you blind to what is going on underneath your nose.

ButterMeTimbers · 12/02/2022 09:38

@DolphinFC it was a reflection of an earlier post that suggested being in "middle class" places would protect you. A notion that, as you suggest, is frankly ridiculous.

As it happens my background is solidly working class Smile

ButterMeTimbers · 12/02/2022 09:45

See here...

"Would I call out bad behaviour by other men? Yes, absolutely. I would also stick about to make sure the woman in question was safe. I'm a fairly big lad, so feel quite comfortable telling people if I don't like something. That being said, I genuinely don't see any of that behaviour to call out. I suspect that is because I have 4 circles of people I am involved with:

  • Work: All very polite and educated people in largely office or online contact. Have never witnessed any inappropriate behaviour.
  • Family: Never seen any inappropriate behaviour.
  • Friends: None of my male friends have ever been one of the creepy/touch men. A friend of a friend was once accused of sexual assault/rape, so far as I know the whole social circle dropped him. Didn't know him directly.
  • General public: I generally hang out in fairly middle classed and upmarket places if I go out to eat or drink. Can't remember the last time I saw any inappropriate touching or heard anyone say anything inappropriate. Probably the last time was when I was far younger and went to nightclubs. I also walk my dogs a lot. Have had a few ladies in the park who have been worried about particular men in the park, have had them walk around with me to feel more comfortable. Often the blokes did seem a bit creepy but hadn't actually done anything."
DolphinFC · 12/02/2022 09:55

[quote ButterMeTimbers]@DolphinFC it was a reflection of an earlier post that suggested being in "middle class" places would protect you. A notion that, as you suggest, is frankly ridiculous.

As it happens my background is solidly working class Smile[/quote]
Thank you for getting back to me. I didn't see the connection you were making to a previous post.

I apologise and withdraw my comment.

ButterMeTimbers · 12/02/2022 09:59

No worries at all. The connection wasn't explicit so easily missed Smile

HoodieHoodie · 12/02/2022 10:27

“ If you even read my previous post ime it’s entirely normal for men to think it’s ok to grab their partners whenever they want, because they see a relationship as a “free pass”. Same with sex, within a relationship men feel it’s ok to sulk, coerce or persist with demands for sex until she gives in to shut him up.”

Yes to this!

I don’t think men recognise the behaviour that makes women fearful, because it doesn’t bother them, or they don’t feel threatened by it.
Also there’s the fact that every woman knows several women who have been raped, but no man knows a rapist. Off the top of my head I can think of several rapists - all decent family men, all guilty of going too far, of not listening to the woman, yet all would be shocked if anyone pointed out that they raped the woman. Rape isn’t necessarily violently dragging a woman off the street and forcefully having sex with her against her will, but most men can’t accept that it goes beyond this because coercion is so normal, sulking because he’s not having enough sex is normal, having sex without enthusiastic consent is normal.

The problem is most definitely men.

cuno · 12/02/2022 10:43

@Random65

You lost me at mansplaining. Saying that in an attempt to shut down my opinion or thoughts as less valid is a pretty poor tactic in debate. Try playing the ball, not the man.
You came on a thread full of women fed up with men saying "not all men" to explain how all of us women are wrong about our experiences of misogyny and you are right proclaiming "not all men". As if we're little girls that need to be chastised for wrongthink as you take personal offence to it because it isn't reflected in your oddly sheltered life. The term mansplaining is therefore perfectly appropriate. But unsurprisingly you took offence to this too.

Yes, I think women (and men) should report all inappropriate sexual behaviour. If nobody knows something has happened then nothing can be done about it.
Why should we report it? What do you think that achieves exactly, and why is the onus on victims to take action? Also, please refer to my previous post I tagged you in where I actually talked about what happens when women go to the police and why it isn't what it's cracked up to be. I spent a whole year of my life on a police investigation which drove me to attempting suicide because of how I was treated and it really impacted my trauma and made everything so much worse. If I went to the police every time I was sexually assaulted, I would spend my whole life in investigations and suffering far worse (perhaps wouldn't even be alive).

I certainly can't do anything, as previously stated I can't remember seeing men groping ladies or saying anything inappropriate, probably due to the professional and social circles I mix in
As I said previously, I simply don't believe you have never witnessed anything inappropriate towards women. You either turn a blind eye or you are desensitised to the neverending microaggressions we as women face. I also find it offensive that you suggest women are simply in the wrong social or professional circles for stuff to happen to them, after all you're in the "right" one. Yeah, as if, pull the other one.

A select few people have held all the power, not all of them men.
Well clearly power doesn't equal intelligence as time and time again you fail to grasp the concept of men having power over women. You are exhausting.

At least from a legal perspective, women have as many rights as men.
Perhaps legally in the UK, but surely you must know in practice this is not how it goes down!

Discrimination is illegal, and if people don't speak up then change doesn't happen. I've taken employers to two tribunals myself and won both.
Gosh, this isn't some bloody competition. I pointed out how I faced discrimination and had to go to tribunal, and wouldn't you know, you've been to two tribunals. Do you always feel the need to one-up people? What are you trying to prove exactly? What is your point?

I think maybe it's you that needs an english lesson. That statement is inclusive of all men, unless they are excluded, which that statement does not.
You are really just showing yourself up here. This is simply untrue and you are just making a fool of yourself by doubling down on it as we are dealing with facts around the English language, not opinions.

How exactly do you think I benefit from some culture that belittles women or promotes their abuse?
Of course men benefit from it. There are also some disadvantages to men from this culture. But on the whole, it keeps men holding power over women, which comes with a whole host of benefits for men, it's not that difficult to understand surely?

That's not a culture I recognise or grew up in. It's not a culture I see amongst any of my family, friends, colleagues or acquaintances. I know that those views do exist in some communities, but not in any circles I mix in.
It's like cancer that touches and infects every part of our society, you and your little bubble are not exempt! You and your friends and family and colleagues and everyone you know do not live in a vacuum! And what are these "some communities" you refer to where misogyny exists? Bizarrely must be any that contain women considering our experiences.

I was married for 10+ years. I was assaulted by my wife multiple times. I never raised a hand to her. Not even once. Not even when she hit me or grabbed a knife. I never forced my self on her. She tried to force herself on me quite a few times. I'm not convinced that women also doing this is anywhere near as much of a rare occurrence as you think.
What happened to you does not invalidate our experiences though. Both statistics and anecdotal evidence supports that women are raped, sexually assaulted, harassed, beaten, killed by men on a far greater scale than the reverse, to the point where it is the norm for a woman to experience those things at the hands of a man and it is almost vanishingly rare for a man to experience those things at the hands of a woman. There are though many more male victims when the perpetrator is male.

I don't have any responsibility for other men behaving like that, as I do not encourage or condone such behaviour, and would challenge it if I saw it.
Men as a group need to take responsibility for their actions as a group. Instead of doing anything constructive that could help us in any way, shape or form, you are fighting women on Mumsnet because you feel slighted by us having a problem with you saying "not all men". You are far more offended by women saying men rape women, than men actually raping women. There's plenty of forums out there that spew vile stuff about women, why don't you go police those forums instead? Perhaps would be a much needed eye opener for you considering you see no evil hear no evil.

There isn't some organised attempt to supress or oppress women
There are and have been and will continue to be organised attempts to suppress and oppress women. Doesn't mean every form of misogyny is part of an organised attempt, and doesn't make any part of what happens organised or not acceptable. It's not an either/or scenario. It still happens on a massive scale and harms all women.

Probably most religions also perpetuate such narrow minded views on women, for most of them it's literally in their holy books.
Yes but these religions are tools to support the patriarchy, not the other way around. Religion didn't magically invent itself, did it? Who do you think wrote those holy books? Because I can assure you it wasn't women advocating for raping and enslaving women, beating wives who step out of line, taking child brides, stoning women, and making us subservient to men in order to serve a higher power.

I didn't say blame the mums. I said blame families and community.
I know you didn't say blame the mums, but by saying blame the families you are automatically placing more blame on the mums that raised them than the mums themselves. Men escaping more responsibility for their actions yet again!

I am a single father to two boys. It's my responsibility to raise them in an environment where those views aren't perpetuated.
Your environment does not exist in a vacuum. We live in a society. A patriarchal one at that. I have said this a thousand times by now. But I would encourage you to please educate yourself further on the matter before teaching your men about this very topic.

You make it sound like there is wholesale raping and pillaging going on.
I mean I don't think it's terribly far off from that and it's pretty common in human history. Surprised you set the bar that high though for us to show concern. Is that what it'll take for us to be taken seriously?

I don't know anyone even accused of rape.
Funny how men don't know any rapists, yet all women seem to know rapists on account of being raped. How many men do you think are doing all the raping?

So, what % of men do you think grope women?
What % of men do you think rape women?

Well I don't know exact percentages, but I think most men (more than 50%) have sexually assaulted a woman in some way. To be honest my own experiences would lead me to believe more, but perhaps I've had a particularly severe stroke of bad luck, although my friends don't seem to have terribly better luck than me.

cuno · 12/02/2022 10:50

*than the MEN themselves

cuno · 12/02/2022 10:51

*teaching your sons

VanGoghsDog · 12/02/2022 11:38

Yes, I think women (and men) should report all inappropriate sexual behaviour. If nobody knows something has happened then nothing can be done about it.

Nothing is done about it if you do report it though.

I've reported several assaults. Aged 14 my friend and I walked to the police station after being flashed at. The police made us tell the story three times. They were enjoying hearing it. I, boldly, said they should probably write it down.

They came to my house and I then had to talk about it in front of my mum, dad and brother. My dad was abusive, so he probably also enjoyed hearing it.
I'm not aware that anything else happened after that.

When I was at college I didn't report a man grabbing and groping me in the street but I told the college principal who reported it on my behalf (which I was annoyed about). The police were nothing short of vile to me. I won't bother with the whole story though.

I'm not aware that anything happened after that.

I didn't report my ex who raped me twice. He has a lot of male friends. They probably also "don't know anyone who's even been accused of rape", but they do know a rapist.

I also didn't report a guy who sexually assaulted me in a public place when I was eighteen and threatened to rape me. I, oddly enough, assumed the police wouldn't do anything.

When I was about thirteen I went to the police, with a friend, to report my father for assault. They told me it was "domestic" and they couldn't get involved.

I wish I had a good story to tell of how I made a report and someone was dealt with properly. But I don't.

And those are only a few of my tales.

Did you report your wife for the assaults, by the way?