Not all men..

[Jenna19871]

Spoke to DH about this tonight and he said ‘it’s not all men though is it?’

He’s right. It’s not all men. But I have experienced so much shit that wouldn’t be accepted nowadays (not tragic shit but just not acceptable)

At 19 my drink was drugged with rohypnol in the local night club, thankfully I didn’t drink it as it tasted ‘sour’. It was caught on CCTV. The man was banned for 2 weeks. 2 weeks!!!

I’ve taken the tube and had men put their hands on my butt/legs etc with me trying to move away. I didn’t shout, I should have!

None of these are awful stories but it just goes to show that when people say it’s not all men...but it is most women.

@Random65 But it is a male problem. What a strange comment.

@Lifeisforliving1

Serious question. If all the men in the world started challenging their mates and 9 out of 10 were now completely amazing men, wouldn't you still be wary of the 1. Therefore, although education was done I'd personally still be wary. 100% is never going to be achieved.

Surely we can do better than 2 women every week in the UK murdered by a man though?

But it's not all men that do these things at all and to be honest I struggle with painting a man who doesn't challenge their friends the same as those committing the crime

Male violence is a male problem, it affects men and women. If some men don't want to step up and be part of the solution that's fine but I resent them turning up on a predominantly female website to tell us "not all men". If you're happy to be silent on the issue around men them sit down, STFU and don't trouble women with your input. WE ARE NOT THE PROBLEM.

The not all menz do my head it as they are making it all about them and not the victims.

@Lifeisforliving1

Serious question. If all the men in the world started challenging their mates and 9 out of 10 were now completely amazing men, wouldn't you still be wary of the 1. Therefore, although education was done I'd personally still be wary. 100% is never going to be achieved.

You can't let the impossibility of achieving perfection stand in the way of striving for improvement.

@KeepingAnOpenMind

The not all menz do my head it as they are making it all about them and not the victims.

Yes, it infuriates me too. Tbh I'm not even keen on the push to get men to challenge other men for precisely this reason either. The idea of a bunch of 'good guys' like our friend on the thread here, thinking they can solve it for us by telling each other off, doesn't really sit right with me. Even the ones who don't say NAMALT are usually saying they themselves are not like that, and then sitting back smugly waiting for praise.

@Random65

To be honest, I don't know any men who'd be offended at women looking out for themselves. In fact, I can honestly say I've never seen a man get offended over something like that

You're here though, commenting, clearly it bothers you (and other men) to the extent you need to tell women to modify their behaviour in order to get the attention of the good guys to 'help' with our 'cause'.
Expecting women to change their reaction to fit in with what men want from them.
"We'll help you out and tell the naughty boys off, but only if you ask us nicely enough" - you are still the sex with the power intent on keeping it even if you've never inappropriately touched or spoken to a woman.

Sexual harassment, abuse, rape - all examples of that power (which you don't appear to recognise you have, or admit) but just further along with less inhibition.

Posted too soon!

So to that end, either look and act upon the real problem - men abusing women in various forms, or just carry on not abusing women yourself and stay away from trying to tell women how to deal with it.

It’s far far too many men

And not a small minority

@Random65

You suggest people report all incidents to the police, no matter how insignificant, so that a picture can be formed of what's going on, and useful remedies developed.

I suspect you are hoping that men will report incidents in droves, and thus shame women into silence.

If this isn't the case, why should women report incidents? Is the word of women not enough, the multitudes of studies, etc?

The recounting of incidents of sexual assault, harassment, and open misogyny isn't something new. Women have been complaining about it for hundreds of years. It's only been half heartedly recognized as a problem in the last few decades. It's not that long ago that there was no such thing as rape within marriage. This isn't because women were not raped by their husbands.

I bet if you were to talk with any of your female colleagues, any female admin staff, any of the women in your social circle, they would tell you of incidents they have suffered.

@LifeInAHamsterWheel

In my experience, it's not all men. But it's always men.

It's quite a lot of men actually.

Maybe we should have women and girls report to police day

But how would the operators be able to manage the huge amount of calls how will the police find the time to record every reported incident

@OhWhyNot

Maybe we should have women and girls report to police day

But how would the operators be able to manage the huge amount of calls how will the police find the time to record every reported incident

There's a thread on here asking for ideas to celebrate International Women's Day!

@CorneliusBeefington

I read recently that "not all men" is the sexual violence equivalent of "all lives matter".

Interesting. As a man I'd not thought about it like that but is most likely right. Both show a level of sheer bloody ignorance/stupidity/fragility of ego that is equally staggering.

Unfortunately people who are the problem range from the outright misogynistic to a mate of mine who's been a genuinely stand up bloke until recently when he came out with some worrying views. A bloke that my wife and girls (who have highly sensitive dickheadometers) love to bits. It completely threw me and while I pulled him up on it, left me questioning my ability to judge characters.

I think people like my mate can be corrected/educated but am often at a loss, what to do about those who would think nothing of beating you up if called out for their crappy behaviour.

I think it’s a good idea shall find the thread!

@Random65

To everyone who was asking Qs, can't be bothered to quote them all, so apologies if I miss any.

Would I call out bad behaviour by other men? Yes, absolutely. I would also stick about to make sure the woman in question was safe. I'm a fairly big lad, so feel quite comfortable telling people if I don't like something. That being said, I genuinely don't see any of that behaviour to call out. I suspect that is because I have 4 circles of people I am involved with:

• Work: All very polite and educated people in largely office or online contact. Have never witnessed any inappropriate behaviour.
• Family: Never seen any inappropriate behaviour.
• Friends: None of my male friends have ever been one of the creepy/touch men. A friend of a friend was once accused of sexual assault/rape, so far as I know the whole social circle dropped him. Didn't know him directly.
• General public: I generally hang out in fairly middle classed and upmarket places if I go out to eat or drink. Can't remember the last time I saw any inappropriate touching or heard anyone say anything inappropriate. Probably the last time was when I was far younger and went to nightclubs. I also walk my dogs a lot. Have had a few ladies in the park who have been worried about particular men in the park, have had them walk around with me to feel more comfortable. Often the blokes did seem a bit creepy but hadn't actually done anything.

How did I feel when women did inappropriate things to me? It was mildly annoying. It didn't deeply bother me, and wasn't something that I'd give another thought to the next day. If it had progressed or continued when I'd made it clear it was unwanted attention then I'd have been quite capable of physically stopping it.

Fully appreciate that me being a larger than average bloke is in a very different situation to a less physically strong woman, so not trying to equate my experiences. But I have had plenty of inappropriate and unwanted touching and comments from women.

I think the problem with trying to label it as an "all men" are responsible problem is that you won't get buy in from the actual decent men that way. Scumbag men are responsible for their own behaviour, as are scumbag women. I agree that non-creepy men can potentially help by calling out inappropriate things when they see it, as can women who witness things but trying to brand men who don't do these creepy things as part of the problem is not very good messaging and is unlikely to get the "good" men on side.

What would make a difference is people, of both sexes, reporting all inappropriate behaviour to the police/HR/anybody. Even if it is just logged and recorded as an event with no evidence, it could help to build a wider picture of inappropriate behaviour and allow or support future action.

I completely understand the position women are in when it comes to this issue. But it is on no level something I have done, would do, condone or would see happening without challenge.

Personally I couldn't care less if women thought all men were the problem as my ego isn't so big or fragile. It's not exactly about me, other than the general requirement to be a decent human being. Ultimately if I'm not doing anything wrong then what difference is it if women (not all wiminz tho!) think I'm not a nice guy. I think I might just get over it given who's really suffering in all this.

I genuinely fear for women if large swathes of allegedly 'decent' men decide not to help them because their feelings are hurt and they feel a bit alienated. Those who complain about this kind of thing are probably those men that women are trying to get away from!

To me it seems that logging events isn't going to make a difference as women have been logging stuff for aeons. The thing that will make the difference is people actually listening and taking it seriously. Perhaps when people take it seriously enough, they'll realise just how pathetic it is to be so upset by being thought of as the problem, when you're one of the so called 'good guys'.

[quote SweetFelicityArkright]@Random65

To be honest, I don't know any men who'd be offended at women looking out for themselves. In fact, I can honestly say I've never seen a man get offended over something like that

You're here though, commenting, clearly it bothers you (and other men) to the extent you need to tell women to modify their behaviour in order to get the attention of the good guys to 'help' with our 'cause'.
Expecting women to change their reaction to fit in with what men want from them.
"We'll help you out and tell the naughty boys off, but only if you ask us nicely enough" - you are still the sex with the power intent on keeping it even if you've never inappropriately touched or spoken to a woman.

Sexual harassment, abuse, rape - all examples of that power (which you don't appear to recognise you have, or admit) but just further along with less inhibition.[/quote]
Lol, what?
It doesn't bother me, I was just pointing out why the message won't go over well.
I'm not telling any woman to do anything. Just pointing out that there are better ways to go about the way you say things.
The sex with power? Men will always be physically stronger. What are you expecting men to do? Cut their arms off?

If you say "Men rape women" it by definition insinuates that all men do, that's how the english language works. Yes, a lot of men might take offence at that. People don't like being called rapists. So, yes, some will respond with NAMALT.

I've been sexually harassed and inappropriately touched by women. Are all women responsible for the behaviour of those women? If you think men get listened to when those things happen then I've got a bridge to sell you.

Suggesting that "men" as a group are responsible for the behaviour of some other knuckle dragging men they probably don't even know is ridiculous. I'd lay blame at the door of their families and community they grew up in.

@Random65
How would you feel if every pub you went into you felt a MAN grope you or make sexual comments about you? Remember this is not about sexual attraction as neither is sexual assault so you'd not feel anything or feel bothered if it was men doing it to you in the pubs?

I'm in a walking group which is about 40% men. There is one guy who harasses me a lot. He once pinched my bum, which is assault. Sexual assault really.

Everyone in the group thinks everyone else is great.

I once mentioned this guy to another man in the group and said "I keep away from him, he's like a horny teenager" and the man said "ha ha, yes he is a bit like that, I've noticed he's a bit quick to hug and kiss the ladies". But no-one has ever fronted him on it. This guy hasn't. Yet they know, they've seen it.

I'd bet my house that if you spoke to any guy in that group they'd say they're not aware of anything inappropriate happening in the group and that if they saw it they would call it out. But they do see it, they don't call it out.

Oh, that's 40% of a thousand people by the way.

@Random65

I know you weren't responding to me, but everything you say in this thread rubs me the wrong way so I'm going to respond to you anyway!

It doesn't bother me, I was just pointing out why the message won't go over well.
Oh, so you were mansplaining to us silly little women how we are the ones who have got it twisted? Gotcha!

I'm not telling any woman to do anything. Just pointing out that there are better ways to go about the way you say things.
You think it's better to go off and log everything officially with police, HR and whatever else you deemed appropriate in your previous posts, so we can then shut our traps and not bother men like you with the reality of our experiences? The police don't want to know, the prosecution and conviction rates are at an all time low, and many companies don't have qualms about sacking women they see as troublemakers. Trust me, I've been to tribunal because I was punished for speaking out against discrimination!

The sex with power? Men will always be physically stronger. What are you expecting men to do? Cut their arms off?
No, we are not asking men to cut their arms off, bizarre how you could jump to that conclusion! But I guess that would be a man's violent solution to it if the roles were reversed here. And it's more than just physical strength, men have held power over us in every sense for centuries! This has already been pointed out to you, but you chose to gloss over it. Whatever makes you feel comfortable I guess.

If you say "Men rape women" it by definition insinuates that all men do, that's how the english language works. Yes, a lot of men might take offence at that. People don't like being called rapists. So, yes, some will respond with NAMALT.
We also say humans have two legs and two arms, but believe it or not some humans are missing an arm or a leg or don't have any limbs at all! Also white people enslaved black people, does that mean every single white person enslaved a black person? Clearly you need to go back to English lessons, although I think it's common sense you're lacking. And it's not just that men rape women, it's that almost all men who don't do the raping are still partaking in or benefiting from a culture amongst their sex that has an unwritten unspoken rule that we as women are inferior. And this can manifest in many ways other than rape.

I've been sexually harassed and inappropriately touched by women. Are all women responsible for the behaviour of those women?
No because as stated by people time and time again, there isn't an endemic of men being sexually assaulted, raped, beaten, killed and so on by misandrist women. Also for centuries and still to this day men hold the power over women. There is a massive power imbalance at play here. Isn't it like 99.8% of sex offenders are male?! Women doing this are by far the exception and so unique and extraordinary. Can't say the same for males, unfortunately!

If you think men get listened to when those things happen then I've got a bridge to sell you.
Oh for fuck's sake, but it's MEN who aren't listening! MEN. It's your TOXIC culture that has deemed it wrong to be sexually assaulted by women. We were not the ones to create those rules, that's entirely the patriarchy which is harmful for not just women BUT MEN TOO.

Suggesting that "men" as a group are responsible for the behaviour of some other knuckle dragging men they probably don't even know is ridiculous. I'd lay blame at the door of their families and community they grew up in.
The idea that it's just some knuckle dragging minority doing all the raping and killing and whatever else of women is laughable! Perfectly ordinary men with perfectly ordinary jobs, with wives and children, with lots of friends and respected and adored by many, are also raping and killing women (including said wives). Lay the blame at their families and communities? So we should just blame their mums right for raising wronguns? And society does have a lot to answer for, but that's because we live in a patriarchal society that has been ran by men for centuries.

@OhWhyNot

Maybe we should have women and girls report to police day

But how would the operators be able to manage the huge amount of calls how will the police find the time to record every reported incident

I'd be on the phone for an hour, I'd be like Columbo - "there's just one more thing.....".

I've probably forgotten more assaults than I can remember and I can remember plenty!

Lol, what?
It doesn't bother me, I was just pointing out why the message won't go over well.

If it doesn't bother you, then why are you so invested in telling the women at least on this thread, how the message won't come across well? What's the motivation for that? If it's 'laugh out loud" funny to think that you are bothered, then why even comment at all if it's so below your radar?

I'm not telling any woman to do anything
You are by your own admission, telling women why their message won't go over well by explaining to us what you think we're doing wrong and how to do it right.

Just pointing out that there are better ways to go about the way you say things.
I think you need to take your own advice there.

The sex with power? Men will always be physically stronger. What are you expecting men to do? Cut their arms off?

Typically juvenile response from a defensive man, you don't need to remove your arms (hands, feet or penis either for that matter) to not use them as weapons against women. Let's try that first?

If you say "Men rape women" it by definition insinuates that all men do, that's how the english language works. Yes, a lot of men might take offence at that. People don't like being called rapists. So, yes, some will respond with NAMALT.

Only ones who are offended (which apparently you're not, nor know anyone who is) by women being wary of all men. Being wary of all men and saying men rape/abuse/murder women is not an accusation of rape/murder/abuse against an individual man. Me saying men murder, rape and abuse women doesn't automatically mean I'm directly accusing the Pope of being an abusing, raping murderer by default (best example I can think of) it means that the statistics bear out that men are violent towards women.

I've been sexually harassed and inappropriately touched by women. Are all women responsible for the behaviour of those women? If you think men get listened to when those things happen then I've got a bridge to sell you.

Women don't get listened to either, or we get blamed for those things happening by virtue of being female and there, at least there's a little bit of equality in all this eh?
And no, all women aren't responsible for the awful acts of some, and all men aren't responsible for the awful acts of some - but - men with a mindset like yours, trying to explain to women how they're doing it all wrong, aren't contributing to a solution, you're trying to get us to change our behaviour so you don't feel bad, because that's more important to you than women being safe from the men who are violent.

Suggesting that "men" as a group are responsible for the behaviour of some other knuckle dragging men they probably don't even know is ridiculous. I'd lay blame at the door of their families and community they grew up in.

And do those communities not contain men then? Why do you feel so personally attacked by women recounting experiences that have led them to be wary of all men? Why do you feel the need to keep saying 'not all men' - especially as you claim to be not bothered by it anyway?

We know it's not all men, I have indeed had encounters with men that haven't led to negative outcomes. Unfortunately I've had enough encounters with men that have led to negative outcomes that I now view all men as having the potential to turn a situation that way.

Telling me NAMALT is not going to change that, telling me NAMALT is going to make me think you're trying to shut down conversation around that and rather than being concerned about the experiences that led to me feeling that way because I've been harmed enough times to react that way, you're more concerned that I may have a negative view of you.

Speaking as a man and soon to be father of a DD, I am concerned about my wife's and future children(s) safety. I grew up in two of the safest places in the world so where catcalling, violence against women, are generally not openly seen in public - but of course statistics show it exists nonetheless (albeit less than the UK).

I also for a while thought for a while “not all men” was a reasonable statement - because I was brought up around a strong family that strongly condemned disrespectful behaviour - and felt like a general statement that appeared to paint all people of a certain make in that native light to be unfair. Perhaps a bit like someone making the statement of an Asian student “of course he/she's good at maths, all Asian kids are” is considered offensive to someone of that ethnicity, particularly if you are not gifted as such.

Yes there is some truth to the statement, but it also brings down people who are themselves against (and who actively prevent) questionable behaviour. I'm not sure my view has changed entirely on the phraseology, but of course I understand the sentiment of most (if not all) women not feeling safe.

As to comments on being more proactive against bad behaviour of other men - I fully support this but it's very context specific. If I was walking with my wife in the street and a group of 4 men said something unsavoury to my wife I need to make a judgement call on our overall safety before speaking up - starting a potential fight and putting her in further danger wouldn't be very impressive. Same would apply if that happened to a woman I did not know. Of course, when I suspect a crime may be committed my view will change and I will be more willing to put myself in personal risk.

Of course if I'm with friends and they say something to a stranger that's questionable, I'll tell them that's not something they should say - but again there are nuances to this where I might personally feel uncomfortable about what the saying, but in fact they're flirting (and turns out it is well received - this has happened a few times to my surprise). You might find it hard to believe, but I honestly don't have many moments of having to do deal with this situation, but perhaps my friends are too tame to conduct this sort of activity generally.

Happy to deal with any comments or questions if you think I've missed something or want to know more about men's interactions with one another.

@JerryBean Of course, when I suspect a crime may be committed my view will change and I will be more willing to put myself in personal risk. doesn't it bother you that verbally harassing women in the street isn't a crime, even though it is designed to frighten and intimidate them?

@Lifeisforliving1

Of course the majority of sexual crimes are men. That's been proven and needs tackling in some way. But it's not all men that do these things at all and to be honest I struggle with painting a man who doesn't challenge their friends the same as those committing the crime (although I agree there is a lot of these even doing the smallest of things).

However, it's also 'some' women. I've been out when women grab a guys arse or worse, say something lewd or shove their boobs in their face. I've also never seen anyone they were with challenge them either. I usually judge the girl doing it but not her friends.

I completely agree with educating our sons and teaching them not to treat women that way but I will also be telling my daughters the same thing.

It's not ok for anyone to treat other people this way but do feel as though there are some guys who are getting trashed for doing very little and this is very damaging also for our young boys.

It’s interesting isn’t it - across the US there exist ‘failure to protect’ laws that primarily result in women being incarcerated for the crimes of men. In some cases the women have been imprisoned for longer for the crime of failure to protect a child than the men who actually committed the crime.

The men who make and enforce such laws don’t “struggle with painting a woman who doesn't challenge their husband the same as those committing the crime”. Quite the opposite. Yet here we are. Rushing to defend men.