Not all men..

[Jenna19871]

Spoke to DH about this tonight and he said ‘it’s not all men though is it?’

He’s right. It’s not all men. But I have experienced so much shit that wouldn’t be accepted nowadays (not tragic shit but just not acceptable)

At 19 my drink was drugged with rohypnol in the local night club, thankfully I didn’t drink it as it tasted ‘sour’. It was caught on CCTV. The man was banned for 2 weeks. 2 weeks!!!

I’ve taken the tube and had men put their hands on my butt/legs etc with me trying to move away. I didn’t shout, I should have!

None of these are awful stories but it just goes to show that when people say it’s not all men...but it is most women.

Women don't say all men though, women say 'men abuse women' and then men say 'not all men abuse women' even though no one ever said it was all men who do it

Bingo.

@Random65

To everyone who was asking Qs, can't be bothered to quote them all, so apologies if I miss any.

Would I call out bad behaviour by other men? Yes, absolutely. I would also stick about to make sure the woman in question was safe. I'm a fairly big lad, so feel quite comfortable telling people if I don't like something. That being said, I genuinely don't see any of that behaviour to call out. I suspect that is because I have 4 circles of people I am involved with:

• Work: All very polite and educated people in largely office or online contact. Have never witnessed any inappropriate behaviour.
• Family: Never seen any inappropriate behaviour.
• Friends: None of my male friends have ever been one of the creepy/touch men. A friend of a friend was once accused of sexual assault/rape, so far as I know the whole social circle dropped him. Didn't know him directly.
• General public: I generally hang out in fairly middle classed and upmarket places if I go out to eat or drink. Can't remember the last time I saw any inappropriate touching or heard anyone say anything inappropriate. Probably the last time was when I was far younger and went to nightclubs. I also walk my dogs a lot. Have had a few ladies in the park who have been worried about particular men in the park, have had them walk around with me to feel more comfortable. Often the blokes did seem a bit creepy but hadn't actually done anything.

How did I feel when women did inappropriate things to me? It was mildly annoying. It didn't deeply bother me, and wasn't something that I'd give another thought to the next day. If it had progressed or continued when I'd made it clear it was unwanted attention then I'd have been quite capable of physically stopping it.

Fully appreciate that me being a larger than average bloke is in a very different situation to a less physically strong woman, so not trying to equate my experiences. But I have had plenty of inappropriate and unwanted touching and comments from women.

I think the problem with trying to label it as an "all men" are responsible problem is that you won't get buy in from the actual decent men that way. Scumbag men are responsible for their own behaviour, as are scumbag women. I agree that non-creepy men can potentially help by calling out inappropriate things when they see it, as can women who witness things but trying to brand men who don't do these creepy things as part of the problem is not very good messaging and is unlikely to get the "good" men on side.

What would make a difference is people, of both sexes, reporting all inappropriate behaviour to the police/HR/anybody. Even if it is just logged and recorded as an event with no evidence, it could help to build a wider picture of inappropriate behaviour and allow or support future action.

I completely understand the position women are in when it comes to this issue. But it is on no level something I have done, would do, condone or would see happening without challenge.

"Good men" should not need a reason to "buy in" to stop the harassment of women.

That being used as your reasoning suggests that you are not as "good guy" as you evidently think yourself to be.

I don’t even understand the point of saying it (well, I do really, it’s to silence us), but are women not meant to care until it IS all men? Is it only then that we have a right to complain?

As a man (I know, I know), I used to say "not all men" but stories from my wife and what I read here make it clear that although it is really not all men, there is a vast amount of us who do behave like that. And as you don't know whether random man walking towards you is like me or like them, you've got assume that all men are like that.

Really sad stage of affairs, but I've learned not to be defensive when someone "hates men". I'm a man, not men. Men are arseholes.

@Random65

To everyone who was asking Qs, can't be bothered to quote them all, so apologies if I miss any.

Would I call out bad behaviour by other men? Yes, absolutely. I would also stick about to make sure the woman in question was safe. I'm a fairly big lad, so feel quite comfortable telling people if I don't like something. That being said, I genuinely don't see any of that behaviour to call out. I suspect that is because I have 4 circles of people I am involved with:

• Work: All very polite and educated people in largely office or online contact. Have never witnessed any inappropriate behaviour.
• Family: Never seen any inappropriate behaviour.
• Friends: None of my male friends have ever been one of the creepy/touch men. A friend of a friend was once accused of sexual assault/rape, so far as I know the whole social circle dropped him. Didn't know him directly.
• General public: I generally hang out in fairly middle classed and upmarket places if I go out to eat or drink. Can't remember the last time I saw any inappropriate touching or heard anyone say anything inappropriate. Probably the last time was when I was far younger and went to nightclubs. I also walk my dogs a lot. Have had a few ladies in the park who have been worried about particular men in the park, have had them walk around with me to feel more comfortable. Often the blokes did seem a bit creepy but hadn't actually done anything.

How did I feel when women did inappropriate things to me? It was mildly annoying. It didn't deeply bother me, and wasn't something that I'd give another thought to the next day. If it had progressed or continued when I'd made it clear it was unwanted attention then I'd have been quite capable of physically stopping it.

Fully appreciate that me being a larger than average bloke is in a very different situation to a less physically strong woman, so not trying to equate my experiences. But I have had plenty of inappropriate and unwanted touching and comments from women.

I think the problem with trying to label it as an "all men" are responsible problem is that you won't get buy in from the actual decent men that way. Scumbag men are responsible for their own behaviour, as are scumbag women. I agree that non-creepy men can potentially help by calling out inappropriate things when they see it, as can women who witness things but trying to brand men who don't do these creepy things as part of the problem is not very good messaging and is unlikely to get the "good" men on side.

What would make a difference is people, of both sexes, reporting all inappropriate behaviour to the police/HR/anybody. Even if it is just logged and recorded as an event with no evidence, it could help to build a wider picture of inappropriate behaviour and allow or support future action.

I completely understand the position women are in when it comes to this issue. But it is on no level something I have done, would do, condone or would see happening without challenge.

Your (classist) accounts of your experiences of male behaviour are not relevant to a discussion about women's experiences of the same. Your (sexist) assumptions that you are helping the situation by escorting 'ladies' around the park are misplaced. Your (toxic masculine) belief that a resolution to this may lie in your size and strength compared to that of other men is part of the wider problem. What would make a difference is if men like you stopped centering themselves in this as some kind of white Knight, on whom 'ladies' can rely, and instead used your vote to elect candidates who placed women's issues at the heart of their agendas and used your money and time to support causes and campaigns that did the same. As a woman, I want to trust in the law and those who enforce it to uphold my rights and deal appropriately with those who take them from me, not depend on the goodwill of a passing 'fairly big lad' to keep me safe.

WinniesHunny
"Really sad stage of affairs, but I've learned not to be defensive when someone "hates men". I'm a man, not men. Men are arseholes."

Thank you for showing that some men do get it. I wish more did. I don't hate men, I hate misogyny.

Threads like these do the cause of Women no good at all.

We are not a fucking 'cause'. We are human beings. Breathing, living, sentient people, who are making the not-so-unreasonable request that people who belong to the other sex group stop using their strength against us to murder, rape, threaten, harm and intimidate us, and on a lesser-degree charge, patronising us.

Take your 'frankly ladies' admonition and ram it, sweetness. You gave away your (repulsive) attitude to women right there in the first sentence.

@NewYearEveryYear

It's not 'all' men.

But it's enough of them that ALL women feel afraid, at times that men do not.

Yep. This hits the nail on the head.

[quote SweetFelicityArkright]@Random65

The problem is so called 'good men' becoming offended by women being concerned for their safety around any men, in a situation they may be vulnerable in, which is just about anywhere, and believing that because they are offended by being feared, that women should change their response, and not be concerned/fearful rather than the men that behave this way stop behaving this way.

It seems to bother some men that they are by default, viewed as a threat by women, enough to tell women they shouldn't be like that and NAMALT, but stop short of understanding why we must view all men as a potential threat for our own protection.
We're not asking you to take responsibility for someone else's actions, we're asking you to stop telling us that you think it's unfair that you are viewed as a potential threat by women who don't know you when to stop doing so puts us in danger from those other men's actions.

In short it's easier to tell women they're wrong than to face the actual issue that inappropriate, violent, sexually predatory males are the problem, and as women can't tell the difference until it's too late, we are going to err on the side of caution and view all males as a potential threat.[/quote]
I don't disagree with what you're saying. To be honest, I don't know any men who'd be offended at women looking out for themselves. In fact, I can honestly say I've never seen a man get offended over something like that.

But, I think the reason some men might respond with NAMALT is not because of what you were saying, but that some groups are specifically saying all men are responsible. It is illogical, and insulting to some that they are branded guilty of something someone else is doing.

I don't think anyone is telling women they are wrong, at least I hope not. But the messaging from some quarters is not constructive.

I fully appreciate why women would act with caution. If I had daughters then I hope they'd do the same. Men also have to be cautious, and are at least as likely to be subject to violence, albeit usually not sexually motivated. It's an asshole problem, not a men problem. I don't hang out with assholes, or go places I'm likely to encounter them.

@Random65

To everyone who was asking Qs, can't be bothered to quote them all, so apologies if I miss any.

Would I call out bad behaviour by other men? Yes, absolutely. I would also stick about to make sure the woman in question was safe. I'm a fairly big lad, so feel quite comfortable telling people if I don't like something. That being said, I genuinely don't see any of that behaviour to call out. I suspect that is because I have 4 circles of people I am involved with:

• Work: All very polite and educated people in largely office or online contact. Have never witnessed any inappropriate behaviour.
• Family: Never seen any inappropriate behaviour.
• Friends: None of my male friends have ever been one of the creepy/touch men. A friend of a friend was once accused of sexual assault/rape, so far as I know the whole social circle dropped him. Didn't know him directly.
• General public: I generally hang out in fairly middle classed and upmarket places if I go out to eat or drink. Can't remember the last time I saw any inappropriate touching or heard anyone say anything inappropriate. Probably the last time was when I was far younger and went to nightclubs. I also walk my dogs a lot. Have had a few ladies in the park who have been worried about particular men in the park, have had them walk around with me to feel more comfortable. Often the blokes did seem a bit creepy but hadn't actually done anything.

How did I feel when women did inappropriate things to me? It was mildly annoying. It didn't deeply bother me, and wasn't something that I'd give another thought to the next day. If it had progressed or continued when I'd made it clear it was unwanted attention then I'd have been quite capable of physically stopping it.

Fully appreciate that me being a larger than average bloke is in a very different situation to a less physically strong woman, so not trying to equate my experiences. But I have had plenty of inappropriate and unwanted touching and comments from women.

I think the problem with trying to label it as an "all men" are responsible problem is that you won't get buy in from the actual decent men that way. Scumbag men are responsible for their own behaviour, as are scumbag women. I agree that non-creepy men can potentially help by calling out inappropriate things when they see it, as can women who witness things but trying to brand men who don't do these creepy things as part of the problem is not very good messaging and is unlikely to get the "good" men on side.

What would make a difference is people, of both sexes, reporting all inappropriate behaviour to the police/HR/anybody. Even if it is just logged and recorded as an event with no evidence, it could help to build a wider picture of inappropriate behaviour and allow or support future action.

I completely understand the position women are in when it comes to this issue. But it is on no level something I have done, would do, condone or would see happening without challenge.

No, sorry, I don't buy it. I honestly find it hard to believe that you never see anything inappropriate toward women, and that as a man you haven't heard some of the vile stuff many men say about us behind our back. How, when it's part of our every day life?! I think you just don't notice or pick up on the endless micoaggressions that we constantly face. Sounds like you're desensitised and think that until you're seeing a woman being raped on a desk at work, then it's not a problem. And what the fuck does class have to do it?! Class doesn't make men not act like pigs! In fact it just gives them the tools to cover their arses.

I'm a fairly big lad, so feel quite comfortable telling people if I don't like something.
Yeah, people. Bet that includes women too. This exactly what men do, throw their size and strength around to intimidate us!

What would make a difference is people, of both sexes, reporting all inappropriate behaviour to the police/HR/anybody. Even if it is just logged and recorded as an event with no evidence, it could help to build a wider picture of inappropriate behaviour and allow or support future action.
Hahaha.
Hahahahahaha.
So you're basically saying what would help is if the victims did something about it!!! You are blaming US. Do you even have the teeniest tiniest idea how reporting often backfires on women? Do you have any idea how distressing going to the police is? No of course not, you're clearly far too privileged to even begin to imagine what it's like going to the police and being questioned about what you were wearing, how many people you've had sex with, if you're into BDSM, did you find the rapist attractive, why did you kiss the rapist and give him the wrong idea before he raped you (that is the line of questioning I faced after I was raped, by the way). Before you know it you've wasted a whole year of your life on a police investigation leading to further trauma. Oh, by the way, I've also been sexually assaulted by a police officer. And look what happened to Sarah Everard and the endless scandals with the police force. And you think if we go to the police it'll all be sorted? The police force is rife with misogyny!

Honest to god, your post just shows that you're part of the problem.

I generally hang out in fairly middle classed and upmarket places if I go out to eat or drink. Can't remember the last time I saw any inappropriate touching or heard anyone say anything inappropriate.
You are kidding yourself if you think that these things don't happens in middle class, upmarket places.

@youvegottenminuteslynn

Isn't it amazing how many people who say not all men magically don't know any men who 'are like that' but almost every woman they know will have known at least one man (overwhelmingly likely statistically to be multiple men) who is 'like that'. The maths doesn't add up. It's almost as if they aren't willing to face reality at all, isn't it?

🙌🏻

@Random65 it is a problem for all men though. What are you personally doing to stop it? From your Nice Man throne?

It's an asshole problem, not a men problem. I don't hang out with assholes, or go places I'm likely to encounter them.

The problem here is that you've decided that only a certain type of man who goes to a certain type of place are the problem. Whereas women know that's not true..... women are harassed, subjected to inappropriate comments, raped and murdered across all sections of society in many different types of places.

[quote Pumperthepumper]**@Random65* it is a problem for all men though. What are you personally* doing to stop it? From your Nice Man throne?[/quote]
Exactly! To be honest I find it quite telling that the men are coming out the woodwork because the thread title is enough to make them froth... that's not the behaviour of a Nice Man.

@Blinky21

It isn't most men in my experience

Its not all men, but it would be bloody useful if the ones it is could have it sprayed on their foreheads so we would know which ones they are.

Until then my advice is “ it probably isn't all men, but to be safe - assume it is”

Every single woman I know has been harassed/assaulted/raped at least once, most more than once.
The vast majority of men I know defend other men, without fail - when they do this they are part of the problem.
A depressing number of women defend men. I do wish they’d stop. If women could present a truly united front we’d maybe get somewhere, meanwhile those who are fully aware of the problem that is male violence are often labelled man haters, TERFs, misandrists, and ignored.

Well its a lot of men. I think irrespective of the depressing "you are 12 and I'm going to lech at you" experience which all women have, the real one that probably shocked me was work.

A lot of men are really quite vile about their partners, how stupid their wives are. Yet of course they were all trolling home every night to them, these women that they apparently had chosen to marry or cherish.

I suppose there is a bit of men that expects idiots in vans, gropers in nightclubs, stupid shouting in the street. But this issue in work always stays with me. I really did see that a lot of men think of their partners as a kind of dim, domestic appliance, and are not afraid to say something along those lines.

It's an asshole problem, not a men problem. I don't hang out with assholes, or go places I'm likely to encounter them.

I'm an arsehole. As a female, I'm also statistically highly unlikely to be a violent, murderous, sex-offending, dangerous arsehole, though.

Therein lies the difference.

Random65 it is a problem for all men though. What are you personally doing to stop it?

Do we think random spends time on MRA/INCEL sites admonishing them for their attitude to women? Perhaps he argues a good, "NAWALT", case on our behalf. Perhaps he tells them their attitude is not helping their cause. He's one of the good guys isn't he? Maybe we should give him the benefit of the doubt?

Probably not.

Random sweetie I've flushed things I value more than your opinion or "pro tips" for women on how not to piss men off.

Of course the majority of sexual crimes are men. That's been proven and needs tackling in some way. But it's not all men that do these things at all and to be honest I struggle with painting a man who doesn't challenge their friends the same as those committing the crime (although I agree there is a lot of these even doing the smallest of things).

However, it's also 'some' women. I've been out when women grab a guys arse or worse, say something lewd or shove their boobs in their face. I've also never seen anyone they were with challenge them either. I usually judge the girl doing it but not her friends.

I completely agree with educating our sons and teaching them not to treat women that way but I will also be telling my daughters the same thing.

It's not ok for anyone to treat other people this way but do feel as though there are some guys who are getting trashed for doing very little and this is very damaging also for our young boys.

Saw this on insta today and thought it was very apt.

From @thisisfeministbro

@Lifeisforliving1

Of course the majority of sexual crimes are men. That's been proven and needs tackling in some way. But it's not all men that do these things at all and to be honest I struggle with painting a man who doesn't challenge their friends the same as those committing the crime (although I agree there is a lot of these even doing the smallest of things).

However, it's also 'some' women. I've been out when women grab a guys arse or worse, say something lewd or shove their boobs in their face. I've also never seen anyone they were with challenge them either. I usually judge the girl doing it but not her friends.

I completely agree with educating our sons and teaching them not to treat women that way but I will also be telling my daughters the same thing.

It's not ok for anyone to treat other people this way but do feel as though there are some guys who are getting trashed for doing very little and this is very damaging also for our young boys.

Except one is a much, much bigger problem than the other. Nobody is putting out the fire in their shed before the fire in their house.

Serious question. If all the men in the world started challenging their mates and 9 out of 10 were now completely amazing men, wouldn't you still be wary of the 1. Therefore, although education was done I'd personally still be wary. 100% is never going to be achieved.

@Lifeisforliving1

Of course the majority of sexual crimes are men. That's been proven and needs tackling in some way. But it's not all men that do these things at all and to be honest I struggle with painting a man who doesn't challenge their friends the same as those committing the crime (although I agree there is a lot of these even doing the smallest of things).

However, it's also 'some' women. I've been out when women grab a guys arse or worse, say something lewd or shove their boobs in their face. I've also never seen anyone they were with challenge them either. I usually judge the girl doing it but not her friends.

I completely agree with educating our sons and teaching them not to treat women that way but I will also be telling my daughters the same thing.

It's not ok for anyone to treat other people this way but do feel as though there are some guys who are getting trashed for doing very little and this is very damaging also for our young boys.

Nobody is excusing women who are sexually inappropriate.

What we're saying is it isn't the same.
Those men who are groped by women aren't fearful that the next move will violence, rape or murder. Men, as a sex, aren't scared of women. They aren't altering their behaviour in order to try and avoid sexual harassment, rape or murder. They aren't being murders at a rate if at least two a week by their female partners or ex partners. Women are.

It's not the same.