Not all men..

[Jenna19871]

Spoke to DH about this tonight and he said ‘it’s not all men though is it?’

He’s right. It’s not all men. But I have experienced so much shit that wouldn’t be accepted nowadays (not tragic shit but just not acceptable)

At 19 my drink was drugged with rohypnol in the local night club, thankfully I didn’t drink it as it tasted ‘sour’. It was caught on CCTV. The man was banned for 2 weeks. 2 weeks!!!

I’ve taken the tube and had men put their hands on my butt/legs etc with me trying to move away. I didn’t shout, I should have!

None of these are awful stories but it just goes to show that when people say it’s not all men...but it is most women.

If its not all men, some of them are very busy....

@Nomoreusernames1244

What woman has lured a man into her car with the sole intention of rape and murder?

This kind of woman: Michelle Winter.

www.huntspost.co.uk/news/crime/godmanchester-rapist-is-jailed-6909364

Woman rapists are on the increase.

Well this is a whole other topic..... Michelle Winter is transgender and while identifies as a woman has the anatomy of a man.

I'm not sure this supports the idea that women as a sex are dangerous to men.

I hadn't heard it before, but "No...but it is most women" is a fantastic retort to NAMALT.

I don't actually know any women IRL who haven't, at some point, been sexually assaulted or harassed. Most have experienced it many times, from multiple men.

I also worked in hospitality for about 20 years. I have been in contact with 1000s of men. I have experienced every kind of behavior from men. I would say easily 99% of the men I met during that time were inappropriate it some way. Always groups of lads would be making comments to women as they walked passed. Plenty of old men 70+ would grope my female bar staff, the sexist "jokes" were constant. Physical violence towards women luckily was rare, but I often had to throw men out for grabbing and sexually assaulting my female staff. I can think of about 2 of my regulars that never did anything inappropriate, and only about 5 men that ever intervened, when my female customers or staff were being abused in one way or another. Over a 20 year period!!
Male behaviors is disgusting, and if you seriously think your a good guy because you don't participate in any of that kind of behavior, well I'm sorry but your probably not, because I can almost guarantee that you never tried to stop your friends or other men behaving in this way.

Away from work I have personally experienced every possible negative scenario from men and never once has any male tried to help me out of ask the perpetrators to stop.
So I have 0 confidence there are many decent men out there at all.

@Nomoreusernames1244

What woman has lured a man into her car with the sole intention of rape and murder?

This kind of woman: Michelle Winter.

www.huntspost.co.uk/news/crime/godmanchester-rapist-is-jailed-6909364

Woman rapists are on the increase.

Um, the victim was a woman, so it makes no sense that you have used this example against the question

"What woman has lured a man into her car with the sole intention of rape and murder?"

Because that's not what happened in this case.

And (although I couldn't see this in the article) if the perpetrator is indeed biologically male, then it's another example of a male attacking a female.

There was a daily mail sad face story about a woman who’d bought a dress online, it had ripped, and because of the style it was unwearable.

The point of the story she’s complained to whichever online store, they’d said she should have bought a size up.

Buried within the story was the fact this girl had had to walk home holding the pieces of her broken dress together, and been catcalled, had men try to cop a feel as she walked past, and generally been harrassed.

Not one man stepped forward to offer a jacket or walk her home. They all joined in.

And (although I couldn't see this in the article) if the perpetrator is indeed biologically male, then it's another example of a male attacking a female

My point. Did you read the article?

@Nomoreusernames1244

And (although I couldn't see this in the article) if the perpetrator is indeed biologically male, then it's another example of a male attacking a female

My point. Did you read the article?

Yes, which is why I said I couldn't see in the article if the perpetrator was male identified as a female, as another poster said. Imo the article was actually very careful to avoid identifying the sex of the perpetrator. Is that your point?

@Youarefakenews

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Dh is a bouncer, has been for 20+ years. I have been bar staff, hostess etc for a similar amount of time.

Men are the problem.

"Michelle Winter, 49, of Buttermel Close, Godmanchester, a transgender individual who identifies as a female but has not undergone surgery, raped the woman at the same address on May 16 last year...."

To everyone who was asking Qs, can't be bothered to quote them all, so apologies if I miss any.

Would I call out bad behaviour by other men? Yes, absolutely. I would also stick about to make sure the woman in question was safe. I'm a fairly big lad, so feel quite comfortable telling people if I don't like something. That being said, I genuinely don't see any of that behaviour to call out. I suspect that is because I have 4 circles of people I am involved with:

• Work: All very polite and educated people in largely office or online contact. Have never witnessed any inappropriate behaviour.
• Family: Never seen any inappropriate behaviour.
• Friends: None of my male friends have ever been one of the creepy/touch men. A friend of a friend was once accused of sexual assault/rape, so far as I know the whole social circle dropped him. Didn't know him directly.
• General public: I generally hang out in fairly middle classed and upmarket places if I go out to eat or drink. Can't remember the last time I saw any inappropriate touching or heard anyone say anything inappropriate. Probably the last time was when I was far younger and went to nightclubs. I also walk my dogs a lot. Have had a few ladies in the park who have been worried about particular men in the park, have had them walk around with me to feel more comfortable. Often the blokes did seem a bit creepy but hadn't actually done anything.

How did I feel when women did inappropriate things to me? It was mildly annoying. It didn't deeply bother me, and wasn't something that I'd give another thought to the next day. If it had progressed or continued when I'd made it clear it was unwanted attention then I'd have been quite capable of physically stopping it.

Fully appreciate that me being a larger than average bloke is in a very different situation to a less physically strong woman, so not trying to equate my experiences. But I have had plenty of inappropriate and unwanted touching and comments from women.

I think the problem with trying to label it as an "all men" are responsible problem is that you won't get buy in from the actual decent men that way. Scumbag men are responsible for their own behaviour, as are scumbag women. I agree that non-creepy men can potentially help by calling out inappropriate things when they see it, as can women who witness things but trying to brand men who don't do these creepy things as part of the problem is not very good messaging and is unlikely to get the "good" men on side.

What would make a difference is people, of both sexes, reporting all inappropriate behaviour to the police/HR/anybody. Even if it is just logged and recorded as an event with no evidence, it could help to build a wider picture of inappropriate behaviour and allow or support future action.

I completely understand the position women are in when it comes to this issue. But it is on no level something I have done, would do, condone or would see happening without challenge.

@ButterMeTimbers

"Michelle Winter, 49, of Buttermel Close, Godmanchester, a transgender individual who identifies as a female but has not undergone surgery, raped the woman at the same address on May 16 last year...."

In the article I read from the link upthread the transgender individual identified as female isn't there Michelle Winter, 49, of Buttermel Close, Godmanchester, raped the woman at the same address on 16 May last year.

Not that I'm doubting it.

Maybe in my snot soaked brain today (heavy cold!) I'm spectacularly missing the point here, but the conviction for rape, the article carefully not mentioning the perpetrator gender and then the perpetrator being reported as transgender rather proves the point that men are the problem?

Sorry if I'm getting confused about all this!

It’s so funny that people who say NAMALT have never, ever seen any examples of misogyny in their real lives. How likely is that? Is it not much more likely that you’re so desensitised to it that it just doesn't register?

@Nomoreusernames1244

What woman has lured a man into her car with the sole intention of rape and murder?

This kind of woman: Michelle Winter.

www.huntspost.co.uk/news/crime/godmanchester-rapist-is-jailed-6909364

Woman rapists are on the increase.

You got me there

It’s so funny that people who say NAMALT have never, ever seen any examples of misogyny in their real lives. How likely is that? Is it not much more likely that you’re so desensitised to it that it just doesn't register?

Pretty unbelievable yes. I do believe the people on here that say they don't see it in their circle though. Like attracts like. Amongst my friendship circle if you acted like that you'd likely get a slap and certainly be ostracised. I know a wide variety of people but they're all decent people which is why I like them.

People that extend their experience of their immediate circle to bring representative of society though are seriously misguided, there's a reason you don't hang out with those arseholes!

It's interesting because when we talk about something like child abuse, no one ever says 'not all parents' or 'not all adults'. If an adult has never abused a child, they don't get offended by people saying adults abuse children, because they know it's true and also that it doesn't apply to them, because they personally don't do it. Saying men abuse women is factually true, but it doesn't mean all men abuse all women, if that's how they interpret it then maybe they have a guilt conscious

*being representative

@Chichimcgee

magically don't know any men who 'are like that'

I think 99.9% of men make jokes, ‘banter’ are inappropriate and think it’s fine it’s just ‘lads’ how funny. Then the ones who wouldn’t actually take it further go home and their wives and kids and are in husband/dad mode. Their mates who are like that are then boosted by the solidarity of everyone and go on to harm women.

Yeah this 100%!

@Random65

The problem is so called 'good men' becoming offended by women being concerned for their safety around any men, in a situation they may be vulnerable in, which is just about anywhere, and believing that because they are offended by being feared, that women should change their response, and not be concerned/fearful rather than the men that behave this way stop behaving this way.

It seems to bother some men that they are by default, viewed as a threat by women, enough to tell women they shouldn't be like that and NAMALT, but stop short of understanding why we must view all men as a potential threat for our own protection.
We're not asking you to take responsibility for someone else's actions, we're asking you to stop telling us that you think it's unfair that you are viewed as a potential threat by women who don't know you when to stop doing so puts us in danger from those other men's actions.

In short it's easier to tell women they're wrong than to face the actual issue that inappropriate, violent, sexually predatory males are the problem, and as women can't tell the difference until it's too late, we are going to err on the side of caution and view all males as a potential threat.

@rwalker

I think replacing "all" with something else would be better. By using all it implies every single one so basically OP has accused her DH of being like that.

Women don't say all men though, women say 'men abuse women' and then men say 'not all men abuse women' even though no one ever said it was all men who do it

@5128gap

I find the 'good guy' label rather troubling too. Not harassing women is the absolute baseline. I've never grabbed anyone's arse in my life. I don't expect a round of applause for it. If you're a man who thinks you don't do this, fine. Don't collude with it, call it out if you feel up to it, but otherwise, pipe down and move along. Not everything's about you.

'Equalities a right, it doesn't deserve credit'

Women don't say all men though, women say 'men abuse women' and then men say 'not all men abuse women' even though no one ever said it was all men who do it

Excellent point

* Work: All very polite and educated people in largely office or online contact. Have never witnessed any inappropriate behaviour.
* Family: Never seen any inappropriate behaviour.
* Friends: None of my male friends have ever been one of the creepy/touch men. A friend of a friend was once accused of sexual assault/rape, so far as I know the whole social circle dropped him. Didn't know him directly.

The fact you've not seen it doesn't mean it wasn't happening though. I've had men behave inappropriately towards me at least twice with other people present who didn't notice anything, once in work, once with family/friends.

Obviously you can't stop what you can't see, but also a lot goes on without other people noticing, so nobody can say it doesn't happen in their circles.

A massive amount of Women have seen a stripper. Yet Women will shout how terrible it is for a man to do the same and that it is victimisation of the female performer

//// and how many are of those men have been violently sexually assaulted by women because their job means predators view them as fair game?

Frankly ladies, get out there and see how your own daughters behave when they are out on the town

///

Jog the fuck on