Not all men..

[Jenna19871]

Spoke to DH about this tonight and he said ‘it’s not all men though is it?’

He’s right. It’s not all men. But I have experienced so much shit that wouldn’t be accepted nowadays (not tragic shit but just not acceptable)

At 19 my drink was drugged with rohypnol in the local night club, thankfully I didn’t drink it as it tasted ‘sour’. It was caught on CCTV. The man was banned for 2 weeks. 2 weeks!!!

I’ve taken the tube and had men put their hands on my butt/legs etc with me trying to move away. I didn’t shout, I should have!

None of these are awful stories but it just goes to show that when people say it’s not all men...but it is most women.

Statistically female sex offenders are so rare that most people wouldn't come across this themselves personally
And some if those women also have a penis.

The sad thing is, that the replies on this thread from some men have proved the point of what the thread is about, and they still can't see it.

Some really well put across arguments by men and women towards them and the replies have been 'lol, I'm not bothered' and in a similar vein, instead of discussion.

The issue of male violence against women is an issue that clearly affects men too, as seen on this thread, there is a level of concern. Unfortunately that concern leads some men to turn on the women speaking out because of their hurt feelings, or pride. Women are speaking out because of their hurt feelings, bodies and lives - the stakes are considerably higher for women.

I personally do not expect a knight on a white charger to ride to my rescue each time a man decides to treat me like a sex object, an outlet for his frustration or a toy to play with. What I do expect is that if that happens, and I speak about it, to be met with NAMALT as a response and expected to accept that and just shut up about it.

Imagine the impact if the good men put their hurt feelings aside at how women react to being a target for the bad men, and blamed the people actually causing the problem in the first place, the men who are inappropriate, sexually aggressive, violent and homicidal towards women, and put their energy from those hurt feelings into that instead.
It would benefit women, but it would benefit these good men too.

Shame though that overwhelmingly, more men would rather we shut up about it to spare their feelings than stopped being assaulted, raped and murdered.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/a-third-of-male-university-students-say-they-would-rape-a-woman-if-there-no-were-no-consequences-9978052.html?amp

This says it all really.

An overwhelming number of men are pigs, both overtly and covertly. Lying, cheating, abusive, controlling, violent.

I am raising a daughter who's about to hit her teens. It's unfortunate that I have to set her expectations so low of the boys she will meet and to be very wary.

@Whatwouldscullydo

If you’re with a mate who catcalls, call him out on it! Don’t just sit there say ‘it’s not all men’ and not do your bit to make sure it doesn’t end up all women!

The ones who don't do this directly profit from the ones who do.

Only with the creeps and arseholes , does doing nothing but acting like a regular human being should behave, gain you the honor of being considered one of the good guys having made no effort whatsoever to actually be one.

Imagine if they did in all seriousness call it out. Not in a " this guys making us look good, he's our step one input pulling strategy " way. But in a serious,n I'm not going to be friends with you - yell at u in a pub even if people are listening kind if way.

Imagine the effort youd have to put in to really stand out as a good man if you couldn't lower the bar with your Pervy best friend first.

Thats why things don't change

This is a very insightful post. It explains a lot, actually.

@HootOwl

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/a-third-of-male-university-students-say-they-would-rape-a-woman-if-there-no-were-no-consequences-9978052.html?amp

This says it all really.

And they are the ones prepared to admit it in a study - and to themselves.

How much higher must the real number be!?!?

ButterMeTimbers
Well given 51% of women are raped in bed by their partners when they are asleep I'd say more than 50% as it seems a lot are acting on it already knowing the possibility of consequences is minimal at the moment. So if we add those who do it already to those who say they would do then we have a huge statistic.

@HootOwl

[[https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/a-third-of-male-university-students-say-they-would-rape-a-woman-if-there-no-were-no-consequences-9978052.html?amp]]

This says it all really.

Thats fucked up

I have been sexually pestered by a woman at a christmas party but there is a big difference between having a woman who was so small I could snap her in two sitting on my lap trying to shove her tongue in my ear and a man grabbing hold of me and forcibly kissing me, and that difference is annoyance vs fear.

I have lost count of the number of times I have been sexually assaulted, harassed or had things shouted at me by men, it started when I was probably around 6 or 7 years old.

I would dearly like the men here to explain to me how it is possible that I got chased down harlesden high street by a asian man when I was 15 and not a single man in the busy high street lifted a finger to help a 15 year old white girl being chased by an obviously not related 30 something asian man? I was helped by a group of women as is always the case, we step in to help each other if we can men never do.

and all us female students complained constantly about the men who hanged around the college gates to grab at us , the security just kept saying there was nothing they could do about them as they were not on the college grounds so just run thru them and try to ignore them.

I also went to the police about my abusive now ex, I didnt even get to file a report I got told he cant be doing all that for no reason it takes two to tango and told to go ask the council if they will rehouse me and my kid away from him, nothing we can do.

I got nowhere with the local crisis team either they refused to come out and deal with him, in fact the only person I know who managed to get crisis team out to deal with her partner had threaten them with legal action before they would actually do anything.

the only time anything actually got done was when I was at a job centre scheme and a creepy guy who was on the scheme too groped me and pinned me into a corner, I didnt trust saying anything there so I walked straight out and got a bus to my job centre and demanded to see my advisor (I trested her and knew her well) turned out the man was a convicted double rapist out on parole and his parole officer was called, no idea if he ended up back inside but he was taken off the scheme. I doubt anything would have been done if he wasnt already a known sex offender.

It's like Russian Roulette isn't it? It's not all of them but you're not going to take your chances.

I find the "not all men" line a cop out to be honest.

It takes away from discussing the problem at hand, and is often condescending.

I would dearly like the men here to explain to me how it is possible that I got chased down harlesden high street by a asian man when I was 15 and not a single man in the busy high street lifted a finger to help a 15 year old white girl being chased by an obviously not related 30 something asian man? I was helped by a group of women as is always the case, we step in to help each other if we can men never do.

I cant explain other males actions/lack of helping.

I'd like to think in that situation I'd step in and help. I've had to enough times it at work and nearly got into fights over helping. I've helped woman out who have given me abuse previously because I've had to remove their partners from the building .

I'm no knight in shining armour,but I try and do the right thing when I can

It isn't all men, but it's enough.
It's enough that I worry for my 11 year old daughter when we start to let her go shopping on her own. It's enough that I explain to my two sons how much unpleasant and terrifying shit women have to put up with daily and how their actions could be part of the problem.
It's enough that I'm worried if I'm walking alone at night (I'm a man by the way) and you don't know if the group you meet on the pavement will just carry on walking or decide to smash your face in for no reason.
I rarely if ever go to the pub nowadays, but I'm ashamed to admit that if I saw some man (ie a stranger) saying / doing what's been described, I would have to think twice about stepping in because someone who'd do that wouldn't think twice about sticking a pint glass in my face. I would say something if I knew the person and knew i wasnt likely to be attacked as a result however.

I'll always cross over the road if I'm walking behind a woman at night, or do my shoelaces up so I don't appear threatening. I'm eager to know how I can help further.

@Hollowgast

It isn't all men, but it's enough. It's enough that I worry for my 11 year old daughter when we start to let her go shopping on her own. It's enough that I explain to my two sons how much unpleasant and terrifying shit women have to put up with daily and how their actions could be part of the problem. It's enough that I'm worried if I'm walking alone at night (I'm a man by the way) and you don't know if the group you meet on the pavement will just carry on walking or decide to smash your face in for no reason. I rarely if ever go to the pub nowadays, but I'm ashamed to admit that if I saw some man (ie a stranger) saying / doing what's been described, I would have to think twice about stepping in because someone who'd do that wouldn't think twice about sticking a pint glass in my face. I would say something if I knew the person and knew i wasnt likely to be attacked as a result however.

I'll always cross over the road if I'm walking behind a woman at night, or do my shoelaces up so I don't appear threatening. I'm eager to know how I can help further.

Personal interventions can help, but I agree that sometimes they are not wise. Being thoughtful in your own behaviour is good too. But for me, what I really want to see is changes at a wider level. Changes in the law, prioritisation of public spending so we're not reliant on the good will of nice men to protect us. In most constituencies and local authorities there will be candidates who include women centred policy in their agendas. Look for them and vote for them. Donate to causes and charities that push forward change and support women impacted by thus behaviour. I don't claim to speak for all women, but that's how you would help me.

@Ohmy2022

I would dearly like the men here to explain to me how it is possible that I got chased down harlesden high street by a asian man when I was 15 and not a single man in the busy high street lifted a finger to help a 15 year old white girl being chased by an obviously not related 30 something asian man? I was helped by a group of women as is always the case, we step in to help each other if we can men never do.

I cant explain other males actions/lack of helping.

I'd like to think in that situation I'd step in and help. I've had to enough times it at work and nearly got into fights over helping. I've helped woman out who have given me abuse previously because I've had to remove their partners from the building .

I'm no knight in shining armour,but I try and do the right thing when I can

But isnt that the point? "you cant explain it", "you'd like to think" etc

we are talking about my experience in the 43 years I have been on this planet, in those 43 years I have encountered many bastards for want of a better word, too many to count and from an age when I didnt understand what they were saying/wanting etc and in all those years not one man has done anything they always ignore it or brush it off leaving us women to stand up for each other, which we do I am no wallflower I am a tad athletic and can outrun a man (had to on many occasions) I have stood up to men in the street, I can kick a man over 6 foot square in the face (I am about 5"4) and I am often expected to help/protect other women in groups and I do try my best too.

IMHO the not all men bollocks is out of guilt because you know you have seen things and did nothing because you feared for your own skin, and the "but women do it too" is a way to tell women this is how it is shut up and put up with it thats life.

you dont hold each other to account and frankly anyone having to step in shows a failure that things have even gotten that bad that it is required that members of the public step in to help people, it should be completely socially unacceptable for women and girls to be treated like meat, it should be socially unacceptable for anyone to be even airing such thinking.

in the early 80s we still had yobs hanging around to beat up black people yet for the most part (until brexit reared its ugly head) such thinking was deemed so unacceptable that they never even got to be in such numbers they were nipped in the bud long before they got to that stage of being able to beat people in the streets with impunity.

now even sex as a protected characteristic is being eroded, my kids school policies doesnt even list sexism on its unacceptable behaviour list and the government has repeatedly refused to add misogyny to the hate crime legislation.

so if you want to do the right thing, listen to women, support womens rights and hold the policy makers up to scrutiny who ignore women and refuse to recognize the problem, knights in shinning armour are a symbol o failure.

@VelvetChairGirl

Let me ask you this if you saw a woman abusing a man verbally and physically. Would step in?

I think the fundamental issue for me is that we are fighting against centuries of women being seen as inferior, and this has shaped most people's beliefs. All my long term partners raped and/or sexually coerced me (sometimes in my sleep) and men I slept with from work (everyone thought they were lovely guys) did too. One of them was guilty of stealthing. All of these men are well educated professionals from "good" backgrounds and everyone thought they were "good guys". I genuinely don't think any of them think they did anything wrong because in their minds rape is violent or carried out by a stranger, they just coerced me, manipulated me or had sex with me while I was unconscious (no big deal!). On the stealthing, he probably thinks I consented to sex with a condom so stealthing is fine - i felt totally violated and never spoke to him again. I doubt any of them have thought about these instances since but I think of them all the time. They don't think they are part of the problem because they don't think they have done anything wrong.

[quote Ohmy2022]@VelvetChairGirl

Let me ask you this if you saw a woman abusing a man verbally and physically. Would step in?[/quote]
I probably would even though it might not safe and I would definitely call the police.

But the problem with this question you've posed is that it's an attempted 'gotcha' where all things aren't equal.

You've flipped the sex of the victim and perpetrator in the case of a public attack. You haven't changed the sex of me, the unrelated bystander. And it is my sex that dictates the danger and potential consequences of getting involved.

As a woman I am far less likely to be able to defend myself physically should a male aggressor turn on me than if if female aggressor did so.

Surely you can see that?

[quote Ohmy2022]@VelvetChairGirl

Let me ask you this if you saw a woman abusing a man verbally and physically. Would step in?[/quote]
would you?

your the man your bigger and stronger then me.

as stated we women have to help each other in groups this is why we do it in groups we are weaker then men, so being the strapping lad I am sure you are would you step in knowing you are stronger then the woman?

@Sleepytimebear

I think the fundamental issue for me is that we are fighting against centuries of women being seen as inferior, and this has shaped most people's beliefs. All my long term partners raped and/or sexually coerced me (sometimes in my sleep) and men I slept with from work (everyone thought they were lovely guys) did too. One of them was guilty of stealthing. All of these men are well educated professionals from "good" backgrounds and everyone thought they were "good guys". I genuinely don't think any of them think they did anything wrong because in their minds rape is violent or carried out by a stranger, they just coerced me, manipulated me or had sex with me while I was unconscious (no big deal!). On the stealthing, he probably thinks I consented to sex with a condom so stealthing is fine - i felt totally violated and never spoke to him again. I doubt any of them have thought about these instances since but I think of them all the time. They don't think they are part of the problem because they don't think they have done anything wrong.

My ex wouldnt believe he was abusive he was a firm believer in treat them mean keep them keen, everything was a total hierarchy even down to where my food was kept i the kitchen and my clothing (bottom self and bottom of the wardrobe), he was a rapey bastard who refused to acknowledge the word no, simply because I was inferior and thus my feelings and opinions are irrelevant.

if I told any one he know what he was like they wouldnt believe me for 1 second, he was small and cute, very charming and always playing victim, to me he played victim claiming his father was abusive to him poor him and to the next idiot he claimed his ex (i.e me) was abusive to him poor him etc.

[quote Ohmy2022]@VelvetChairGirl

Let me ask you this if you saw a woman abusing a man verbally and physically. Would step in?[/quote]
I don't understand this question. Men would continue walking past that and not do a thing even though the woman is of no real risk to them. It would be easy for you to step in and do something, but again the onus is on women to step in, just like when a man is attacking a woman the onus is on us to sort it out.

And let's face it, men up and down the country aren't being beaten and raped by women in their droves. No, in fact it's the other way around. So stop playing dumb with your silly little questions!

@VelvetChairGirl

probably would even though it might not safe and I would definitely call the police.

Saying probably amounts the same as me saying I'd like to thinks so. Which you questioned early

So it seems were on the same with this we would probably/like to think we would do something.

At least theres some common ground

But the problem with this question you've posed is that it's an attempted 'gotcha' where all things aren't equal.

No it's not an attempt of a "gotcha" so dont try and shut me down with that.

Your expecting me to be accountable for stopping the behaviour and actions of the men treating woman badly . I'm not responsible for what every man does and nor should be . I'm responsible for me doing the right thing when needed . And as stated I have done on many occasion and will continue to do so when I can.

You will never hold the majority of any other group to be accountable for stopping the bad few in that group.

You've flipped the sex of the victim and perpetrator in the case of a public attack. You haven't changed the sex of me, the unrelated bystander. And it is my sex that dictates the danger and potential consequences of getting involved.

You dont know me or my height or my build or strength. I could be 5'6 8st and weak as as kitten and your still expecting me to stop the actions of others and the threat to me is the same as you

Or I could 6ft,18st good strength .and now the risk of violence is because of my size and build has dramatically gone up because every idiot wants to beat the big guy.

Either way your still expecting me to do something
Based on the fact that I'm male

*As a woman I am far less likely to be able to defend myself physically should a male aggressor turn on me than if if female aggressor did so.

Surely you can see that?*

Of course I can see that. That why i said would you step in if the aggressor was a female.

Basically I was asking are you as a woman responsible for stopping the actions of abusive woman the same way I'm being told I should be responsible for stopping abusive men.

And as you've said you "probably" would .

The same way I would like to think I would. But you saw that as a negative. when you've said essentially the same thing

[quote Ohmy2022]@VelvetChairGirl

probably would even though it might not safe and I would definitely call the police.

Saying probably amounts the same as me saying I'd like to thinks so. Which you questioned early

So it seems were on the same with this we would probably/like to think we would do something.

At least theres some common ground

But the problem with this question you've posed is that it's an attempted 'gotcha' where all things aren't equal.

No it's not an attempt of a "gotcha" so dont try and shut me down with that.

Your expecting me to be accountable for stopping the behaviour and actions of the men treating woman badly . I'm not responsible for what every man does and nor should be . I'm responsible for me doing the right thing when needed . And as stated I have done on many occasion and will continue to do so when I can.

You will never hold the majority of any other group to be accountable for stopping the bad few in that group.

You've flipped the sex of the victim and perpetrator in the case of a public attack. You haven't changed the sex of me, the unrelated bystander. And it is my sex that dictates the danger and potential consequences of getting involved.

You dont know me or my height or my build or strength. I could be 5'6 8st and weak as as kitten and your still expecting me to stop the actions of others and the threat to me is the same as you

Or I could 6ft,18st good strength .and now the risk of violence is because of my size and build has dramatically gone up because every idiot wants to beat the big guy.

Either way your still expecting me to do something
Based on the fact that I'm male

*As a woman I am far less likely to be able to defend myself physically should a male aggressor turn on me than if if female aggressor did so.

Surely you can see that?*

Of course I can see that. That why i said would you step in if the aggressor was a female.

Basically I was asking are you as a woman responsible for stopping the actions of abusive woman the same way I'm being told I should be responsible for stopping abusive men.

And as you've said you "probably" would .

The same way I would like to think I would. But you saw that as a negative. when you've said essentially the same thing[/quote]
But it doesn’t have to be aggressive - in fact, most of the time it isn’t. It’s WhatsApp groups sending misogyny memes, it’s strip clubs as a standard Friday night activity, it’s eye rolling at the wives and the ‘oh I’d give her one’ about the boss. How brave are you to stand up to that? You can still be as weak as a kitten physically - how strong are your morals?

@Ohmy2022

No it's not an attempt of a "gotcha" so dont try and shut me down with that.

Your very first post on here was a gotcha. That question too was a gotcha. You're honestly pathetic to come on here and question our morals and point out wimmenz are just as bad. Shameful.

@VelvetChairGirl

Part of the reason that I would be less likely to physically step in between a female aggressor and a male victim is that a male victim is physically more able to defend himself than I am to defend him.

I would still call the police and knowing myself I probably would still stop in without thinking, but I would also think it more likely a man would be physically more able to defend himself than I would be able to help him.

Whereas a female victim is already at a disadvantage (hugely) so I would risk assess and feel I could make a difference to her safety.

You dont know me or my height or my build or strength.

It is statistically vanishingly unlikely that a woman can throw a punch with more force than you. Your male body has gone through puberty which has given you a physical advantage (muscle mass, lung capacity etc) over the female bodies. To argue otherwise is ridiculous, it is simple biology. There are always outliers but these are statistically incredibly rare. The average man is stronger and faster than the average woman. More able to physically attack, physically defend and to successfully run away.

Or I could 6ft,18st good strength .and now the risk of violence is because of my size and build has dramatically gone up because every idiot wants to beat the big guy.

My ex is 6'7" and I know this is true. I also know that he is more able to defend himself against the risk of violence he experiences due to his size than almost any woman is able to defend herself against the risk of violence she experiences due to her sex.

I could be 5'6 8st and weak as as kitten and your still expecting me to stop the actions of others and the threat to me is the same as you

The threat is entirely different because the risks to me also include sexual assault, sex based verbal abuse and sex based threats. I am an average, height average weight woman. I am statistically weaker than a thin, short man who has had the physical benefits of male puberty.