To ask what you’re doing awake post-midnight? Part 2: Insomnia Strikes Back

[5YearsLeft]

Bit awkward to start this in the middle of the day, but I wanted to be able to link it on the old thread before it completely fills. Meanwhile, even though right now it’s not post-midnight, if you’re having a day-after hangover from insomnia, feel free to post. Whether it’s from poorly children or babies or pets or OHs, whether it’s grief or fear or anxiety or other losses, whether it’s work stress or home stress or just LIFE stress, we get it. You’re not yelling into the void; you’re sharing with people who have been stuck wide awake, too.

Ouch - poor you! I sympathise.
I’ve got tenosynovitis in one ankle and Achilles bursitis in both. All caused by a prescription medication. My feet are in permanent agony so I know how your shoulder must feel.
I hope the painkillers and physio do the trick for you.

@Jumpingintomenopause

I am lying next to a contentedly snoring DH. Turns out sex knocked him out and gave me a horrible hot flush so I have just spent 30min sitting on the cool tiles in our bathroom . Menopause sucks!

Sounds like quite a nice reason to be awake for although not the hot flush afterwards! Hope you cool down and get to sleep soon.

@MrsGlum Oh no, it’s not rambly. And even if it was, it’s the after midnight thread. We expect everyone to have insomnia and be struggling. And I hope I’m not repeating myself, or I might have said this to someone else, but don’t let guilt be added to everything else you’re going through. You made the best decision you could: you were feeling absolutely horrific, you didn’t know exactly why, your doctor told you this medication would make you feel better, and you were brave enough to try. There is NOTHING wrong with that. Don’t feel like you should have had a magical ability to tell the future, or torture yourself thinking that you shouldn’t have ever done it.

I know you feel so horrible right now, so it’s only natural - the panic and anxiety made worse by the withdrawals. Who wouldn’t feel awful?! That’s just too much for someone to handle. Sometimes, if you’re going through hell, all you can do is keep going. I don’t know if you’ve had bad responses to all medications, but I would think that they could maybe give you something to help with the panic and anxiety that doesn’t work the same way as anti-depressants at all. But maybe they don’t want to give you anything due to your bad reaction to the ADs? It just seems awful that you’re going through these panic attacks with no help. But hopefully, if HRT is the ultimate answer, then I really hope you’ll be able to start that soon. I know it may feels endless, but I do hope that maybe you start to have more okay days instead of bad days (sounds like a definite bad day today!) and then maybe one or two happy moments in the okay days and bad days, and then maybe more of them, and then you’re having maybe one happy day along with all the okay and bad days in a fortnight, but slowly they pick up… at least, that’s how it’s veeeery slowly worked for me when I’ve come out of something awful. So, don’t give up hope. You’ll make it through the MH crisis; you’ll make it through the bad days. Not perfectly, but you WILL make it. I wish I could guarantee more rest immediately but sadly, I can’t. I do hope it starts to work soon, that the AD withdrawal insomnia loosens its grip.

@Atourwitsend What a pain, literally. I’m so sorry! I do hope between the painkillers and physio, you’re able to get some relief, but I know physio can be a process (took me ages with my ankle). I do hope whatever methods work for you right now in the interim (just painkillers, heat, ice, any anti-inflammatory gels, etc) help you get some rest, even if they can’t remove enough pain to let you sleep completely.

@Jumpingintomenopause Oh no. Menopause is an absolute bear to deal with. So, SO many ladies on this thread who are experiencing menopause or peri-menopause at all ages and the hot flashes, discomfort, and insomnia, that come with them. I also know so many people on this thread are in HRT, waiting for HRT appointments, etc., now that we have bio-available HRT and the cancer risks are much lower as a result, I hope more people will be encouraged by their doctor to try it in the first place. And if HRT isn’t an a option for you, then I do hope you find something that helps you on the long nights.

[quote 5YearsLeft]@Atourwitsend What a pain, literally. I’m so sorry! I do hope between the painkillers and physio, you’re able to get some relief, but I know physio can be a process (took me ages with my ankle). I do hope whatever methods work for you right now in the interim (just painkillers, heat, ice, any anti-inflammatory gels, etc) help you get some rest, even if they can’t remove enough pain to let you sleep completely.

@Jumpingintomenopause Oh no. Menopause is an absolute bear to deal with. So, SO many ladies on this thread who are experiencing menopause or peri-menopause at all ages and the hot flashes, discomfort, and insomnia, that come with them. I also know so many people on this thread are in HRT, waiting for HRT appointments, etc., now that we have bio-available HRT and the cancer risks are much lower as a result, I hope more people will be encouraged by their doctor to try it in the first place. And if HRT isn’t an a option for you, then I do hope you find something that helps you on the long nights.[/quote]
@5YearsLeft thank you. I started HRT before Christmas at the ripe old age of 38 having been peri for a few years. I am on a combination tablet and the doctor (who has been great) recently doubled the dose to 2mg as certain symptoms were subsiding but I can’t seem to get a handle on others such as hot flashes, insomnia and anxiety.

I am trying to alter my lifestyle but find myself getting more anxious and annoyed by having to do this. I know in my heart I am being ridiculous, however that logic isn’t helping the overwhelming self pity I feel when I am physically exhausted just doing things I used to take for granted like a busy weekend socialising with friends, kids activities etc.
Hopefully after a few weeks in this new dose I feel a bit more like the old me.

I keep hearing this automatic message - finally identified as the audio system from next door's hot tub. Just when I think it's stopped it starts up again. It's going to go on all night isn't it

Hello, lovely people. Sorry you are all awake. I am too! Why does this wretched sciatica have to be so much worse at night? You’d think it would be happy I’m resting my body and not stressing it but no, tonight it’s playing havoc with both legs from the knees down!

I'm doing shifts in a pub on top of my day job to earn some extra money as due to the rising cost of living, 5 days a week during the day isn't enough. Got home an hour ago but can't seem to switch off. Got so much to do tomorrow too.

I don't drink often these days but when I do I can't sleep. Total opposite to my younger days when drink sent me to sleep. Maybe it's a sign I should be teetotal? I've read a book, tidied my wardrobe, had a cup of tea & still can't sleep. Thank goodness tomorrow isn't a work day!!

@5YearsLeft thanks for your lovely reply. I know I shouldn’t feel guilty but it was due to my own overactive and irrational menopausal thought process that led me to a situation where I appeared to need the AD meds. My anxiety was caused by short term problem not a long standing one. I should have said “no thanks” when GP suggested them or I should have done my research into how they have affected other people and if I had, the pack would have gone straight in the bin. There are some horrible things people have experienced on this AD and I’ve now added one more to the list.
I’m so worried that the meds and the withdrawal symptoms have done me some internal damage as well as what it’s done to my feet and other joints.
I’m just feeling so sad that something I did in the short term has left me with a long term problem. It’s also affected my family and my work. It never needed or should have happened.
If I’d never taken them I’d probably now be lying cozily fast asleep alongside my lovely DH - but instead I am alone, in pain and wide awake every night whilst he sleeps in the spare room.
I really hope it stars to get better soon.

@Jumpingintomenopause I know I just said it to @MrsGlum, and it’s quite difficult, but you really have to try not torture yourself more by feeling guilty about how you already feel. So don’t double your worries by feeling that you’re ridiculous (you’re not) or that you must always be the super hero that over one’s their self pity 100% of the time (some days are better than others!). Anyone would be frustrated and feel a bit down on themselves if they weren’t able to do what they used to be able to, and what they WANTED to be able to (I know I’m dreadful for this), so you’re not alone, and I do hope your new dose helps with it, and in the mean time, feck “being kind” to all those other people in the world - be kind to yourself first and foremost , and then, you know, if you have extra energy, you can bestow the extra kindness on them, like how the Queen bestows birthday honors.

@Willowkins Honestly… I’d knock on their door. I’ve become THAT person, that’s how awful I am. Or I assume they’re not there?

@Tallisimo Sciatica is just an evil beast; it doesn’t reward you for resting, it doesn’t (or at least I’ve heard?) seem to always reward you for exercising, it doesn’t reward you with any regularity for anything to try to do to fix it. Honestly, you’ve got to LTB. It’s the only way you’ll get sleep, I’ve decided, after we’ve had several nights together, ha.

@liveforsummer Has what you’re drinking changed maybe? I know so many people talk about the fact they drank more spirits when younger and they’ve switched to more wine now, and wine seems to equal insomnia (on a past thread @catwomando recommended we call it wine-awake). But if what you’re drinking makes no difference and it’s just any time you drink, then it’s just your body being a right arse. Ha. I do hope it eventually wears off and you get a lie in tomorrow!

@MrsGlum Hindsight really is 20/20; it’s absolutely perfect and we can see SO clearly what we should have done. It’s so obvious. But I’m sure you were on your last nerve and desperate for help, even if it was a short-term problem. We all do the best we can, and it does sound like you’ve been incredibly unlucky as well. There are millions upon millions of people who take ADs and have no side effects (mostly, they never post about it online because… no reason to), beyond maybe some very mild nausea or maybe dizziness. So having a side effect serious enough that you have to quit cold turkey is rare, and having one as serious as you’ve had is even more rare. You really, really couldn’t have known. If you’d read the entire packet that came with the pills, I imagine you would have seen the most serious side effects happened less than 1% of the time during drug tests (they usually show a little table that says how often each type of reaction happened). So please don’t feel that you should have seen your side effect in a list of 40+ possible side effects, and known this drug was too dangerous for you as an individual to take. We just make these decisions with the best information we have, and Google probably wouldn’t have made it any clearer at the time either. I do hope it passes soon as well, and you’ll be back in bed with DH!

Hi everyone, it’s busy in here tonight!

I’m pretty sure I’m having contractions ten minutes apart so maybe have a baba soon and then I’ll be back saying she wont stop crying/feeding/keeping me up

@Chichimcgee Ha! I knew it! As soon as you got into the new house, I knew that baby would be able to sense a new sofa and be in a massive hurry to make their way topside. Hooray! I know you haven’t done this in 12 years, but I’m sure you’ll do smashingly.

Thank you @5YearsLeft

Ds was such a traumatic labour and birth so this doesn’t feel toooo bad, not sure if it’s actually happening because I’m not screaming, nearly dying and being rushed to hospital 🤣

Just got done power cleaning the kitchen and bathroom ready for sister in laws visit tomorrow (today) does anyone else feel the need to do a deep clean when someone’s expected over? I mean I’ve just cleaned under my sink for god sake! I doubt she will have a reason to go looking under there but what else can you do when you can’t sleep and laying next to a snoring DH isn’t an option 🙄

@5YearsLeft you are so right about 20/20 hindsight. I keep playing events over and over in my head trying to rewrite history as to how the situation should have evolved, making decisions differently to the ones I actually made and ultimately how I should be feeling now instead of how I actually am. I am also mourning the loss of the future i had expected to have but which I feel as though I’ve thrown away due to my own actions rather than something happening to me that was out of my control.
Prior to this all happening I rarely even liked to take a paracetamol, let alone some powerful psychoactive medication that messes with the nervous system’s chemistry and I’m my case, lots of other body tissues. I have been sensitive to other meds in the past so I should have been more wary with this one.
I’m now terrified to make any decisions in case I get it wrong again.

@Chichimcgee if it helps, my first labour was long, and traumatic at the end, but the second was swift and wonderful. I'm sure yours will be Smashing - you are in control of your life and that will make a huge difference. And your body has done this before so it will know what to do. How very exciting!!!!!!! 👶🏻

@MrsGlum im so sorry you are feeling like this. Bastard panic attacks are just totally shit and horrible. Have you tried (and apologies if you have) the 5,4,3,2,1 technique ? We've a lot of experience of panic attacks in our house and find that it's the best technique to make them subside much more quickly, and stop therm getting hold and escalating.

In terms of 'bad decisions' I read a brilliant book once (life changing actually) called 'feel,the fear and do it anyway' . One of the basic tenets of the book is that there is no such thing as a wrong decision; you make a choice with the data you have at the time, in the mindframe you are in at the time, you can't possibly know all of the future or implications of your choice, nor what would, have happened if you'd made a different choice. In your case you may say 'I should have done my research better' but, you weren't in the right headspace to do that at that time (or you would have). what would be daft is if you made the same decision now that you have the facts in front of you - the fact being that you had a rare and bad reaction to a widely used medication, and that you need to tread very carefully going forward. I have this with antibiotics (I'm now allergic to 2 of them so every time doctors say 'I'll put you on antibiotics' I say, erm no thanks it'll try to live without if I can, unless you think it's absolutely necessary). Key learning for me: GPs don't have much time and can't possibly know you fully so you can't fully rely on them.

Your bad experience will have dented your confidence and is making you feel rubbish right now but you will start to feel better, and like @5YearsLeft wisely says you need to be kind to yourself. I'd add to try and be a bit more accepting of your clever body which is trying its best to recover equilibrium. Nurture your body: feed it well, take it for gentle exercise, stretch it, rub in lovely moisturiser, offer it a splash of lovely perfume , trim and file your nails with care and attention, style your hair , and talk positively to yourself 'you poor thing you've been through it, but we will get better and ill take good care of you and do everything I can to help' . Sounds a bit bonkers but sometimes bonkers can be good for us . I'm a big fan of talking to inanimate objects out loud - it's kind of a loud mindful / gratitude thing but does seem to,start to make inroads to,your overall mood and state of mimd (and may even make you laugh because it can seem quite daft) - and you are all about re-discovering those positive neural pathways, which are hiding from you right now.

Sorry, very long so,please feel,free to ignore my ramblings.

@liveforsummer I hate it that drinking now keeps me wine-awake. Bloody menopause  please know that you are not alone. There are worse alternatives- I have friends who , post covid, do not like the taste of wine at all, so can't even enjoy getting tiddly anymore 

@5YearsLeft the good thing about the botanical gardens is that they aren't going h anywhere and will be beautiful whatever time of year you go one fo the joys of middle age is that we love a bit of a smooch in a garden, something that our twenty-something selves would probably have scorned at 😂

@Confusedmeanderings to the mad cleaning. I sometimes tidy up before our cleaner comes too 🤣

@catwomando thanks so much for your wise insight and reassurance. What you say all makes perfect sense when seen written down, but my damn overactive stubborn brain just won’t allow me to put the feelings to rest. Also the withdrawal insomnia doesn’t help either.
I haven’t tried the 54321 technique but will look it up and give it a go.
Funnily enough I do talk to my body and apologise for doing what I have to it. It’s given me 54 years of pain free and active service and probably would have given me another 30 if only i hadn’t done this to it.
I’m trying to be kind to myself but it’s hard when I’m so angry with me!
Still waiting for my neural pathways to regenerate so I can at least get some relief from these feelings.

@MrsGlum the Americans have a wonderful (but slightly nauseating) expression they use - 'how does that serve you?' , it refers to challenging yourself to ask whether your behaviour/attitude/anger/resentment is good for you or not. If it's not then frankly, what's the point of it, and feeding it as you are clearly behaving in a self-destructive way . To try and help break the negative cycle it might be worth trying every time you have a negative/angry/ resentful thought to ask yourself 'how does that serve me?' And to counter it with a positive (even small ) bit of self-praise instead. Takes practice and is SO HARD to do at first, but becomes a new positive habit after a while. I have to remind myself to use this when I start getting angry with my body when things keep going wrong with it,one after another. Allow myself s rant and a wallow, then onward with the 'well at least my x is working properly today '

The 54321 thing is really simple (and you can train your nearest and dearest in it so they can help you). Mid panic attack you have to say out loud 5 things you can see, then, 4 things you can touch, and then 3 things you can hear, and 2 things you can smell and 1 thing you can taste. By the time you get to the last one the panic is gone. It's really like magic. Obviously it's hard to get started with the 5 things but with support from another, and with practice you do get started and it helps. And as with all things panic related if you know that you have ways to stop it, then you worry less about panic attacks and have fewer of them. Again, this comes from lots of experience chez Catowmando .

And remember you are amazing and will get through this.

I've been stressed out about a job offer. My current job is underpaid but great for my career, convenient commute, nice office environment. The new job is a longer commute (but not awful), 40% pay rise (so that's nursery paid for) but probably not as good for my career and I'll have to move on in a few years. We're going to TTC this year so I don't know whether to stay but then thejob market and economy might have changed in a few years.

@catwomando that’s a very logical approach - my fury at and resentment of my situation serves no one at all. I think I must be mentally trying to change history because what happened was in my control so surely if if I wish it hard enough I can undo it!

I’ve never had depression before but I think this grey flat feeling I have now must be it. Again brought on by my own silly behaviour.

I will try the 54321 method today as I know I’ll probably have a panic attack, although my brain is so tired from literally no sleep it probably won’t have the energy to generate one!

I am just so desperate for sleep I can’t bear it 😢

@Coffeelove123 I completely understand. I used to be panicked when MIL was coming to visit that she was going to judge the house and it would never be clean enough. Of course, it never was clean enough and she always tried to help me by cleaning the whole thing and putting all our things away in mysterious places where we wouldn’t be able to find them for six months In fact, she got us an under-the-sink organizer that’s still down there. She really didn’t mean any of it maliciously. The fact is, either people are going to judge or they won’t, and if they’re going to judge, they’ll find something to judge, even if you turn your house into a spotless museum. And if they’re not going to judge… then they just won’t. As I’ve gotten sick, I’ve had to decide whether I’ll allow people to come to the house even if there are dishes in the sink, and just take for granted they’re true friends who won’t care, or whether I’ll isolate myself because I’m worried about the dishes. Obviously one of those is better for my mental health. So… don’t torture yourself too much If you want to clean because you’re awake, okay. If your SIL is judgmental, cleaning under the sink won’t change her. And if she’s lovely, she won’t care.

@wigglerose That's difficult. It sounds like you’ve already thought about the pros and cons so making a list might not help too much. I don’t know if looking at it on a timeline with the figures drawn in would help - what does it look like if you make your current salary for the next five years, maybe having a new baby next year? What would it look like making your new salary for the next five years, also having a new baby? In terms of nursery fees, in terms of mortgage (if you have one), in terms of pension maybe. As you say you wouldn’t be able to stay in the new position for too long because there’s not much opportunity for advancement. But is it possible that whatever you do is highly desirable right now? Could you take the second job and starts looking for a third? Or not take the second, and start looking for a better third option, with more pay and opportunities for advancement that’s better for your career? I think it might be hard to go without that 40% extra salary for the next five years, but equally, of course you shouldnt sabotage your career. Really, very best of luck with this. I know it’s so hard trying to make a “logical” decision about something that’s also very emotional.

@MrsGlum You’re so, so hard on yourself! You think you would have been perfectly healthy if you just hadn’t made this mistake and taken this medication. But you weren’t - you were feeling terrible, which is why your DOCTOR (you didn’t do this by yourself! You didn’t prescribe yourself this medication!) said you should try this. You were genuinely suffering. You didn’t have quality of life at that moment, and you were worried it wasn’t coming back. Maybe now you can see it was more temporary than it felt at the time but a lot of very real, very terrible conditions can also be temporary, like PND. And while you’re going through a terrible time right now trying to get this medication completely out of your system, it WILL eventually get out of your system (there a lot of things that can affect how long it takes or make it take slightly longer). Lots and lots of people, even ones who have been on an AD for years, have to quit it sometimes. And since it takes weeks for the medication to build up in the body, it takes a long time for it to leave, much longer than for a lot of other medications that only have a half-life of maybe 72 hours. And while I know I can’t promise there won’t be permanent damage, and of course, OF COURSE, it’s going to feel impossible to believe right now, when it’s causing absolutely tons of physical side effects, but it’s possible when the very last of it is out of your system, then the very last of these side effects may be as well. Absolutely feel free to share about these things whenever you’re up, since I know how they can grow bigger and bigger inside one’s head - but I just want you to know, that really, I think the most valuable thing wasn’t your fault, and I do believe there’s still hope. And I do hope you got a wee bit of rest, even if sleep didn’t arrive.

Well, the sun is WAY up so the thread is done for now (though you can post all day long if you’re exhausted and need to talk and/or whinge about it with people who definitely understand).

I’ll be glad to move at the end of the month as our neighbor who has always been really inconsiderate (not Swiss) got a puppy over Christmas that looked too young to be away from its mum, and has been a constant problem since then (I can hear her screaming “NON!” at it all the time so apparently, that’s her training method ). But last night took the cake; I don’t know if it’s because COVID protocol has been lifted here, but she must have left the poor thing along for who knows how long because it absolutely scream-howled (it can’t seem to master a bark?) for hours and hours. No one called the police last night, which is pretty mysterious for Switzerland, and we’re trying to keep the peace for just one more week, but when the scream-howl picked back up at 6am, it looks like one of our neighbors above or below (or maybe there’s one more person on our floor? I’m not sure) had enough, and the police just came to give her a noise warning about 30 minutes ago. So, didn’t do us much good not calling them since I’m sure she’ll think it was us. Sigh. Hopefully she won’t sink our apartment viewings and we can just easily get another tenant in here.