To hate a certain type of middle-class insult?

[AllThePogs]

I am working class and grew up in a very rough area. If I am going to insult you, I will insult you. It is straightforward and you know where you stand.
But there is a certain kind of middle-class person who insults people using veiled language. I see it on MN all the time.
I can't stand it. It is a way to pretend to be polite and reasonable, while often throwing insults with a pretty vicious undertone.
And these people get away with it again and again.

‘ So the prime culprits are people who have either culturally been prevented from actually speaking their minds (could be older women, trauma-impacted people, insecure men). I try to see it as a symptom of powerlessness. Those of us raised to speak our minds are lucky. We deal with it but don't have to live in their heads.

Culprits?
Also, less of the sweeping ill-informed patronising judgements & the
casual ageism.

Otherwise, nice try.

@SquirrelG

Phrases like 'call a spade a spade' and 'tell it as it is' are also euphanisms for being rude, whoever uses them.

People seem to be so proud when they announce they "tell it as it is" - it's just rudeness, nothing at all to be proud of.

See also, ‘I pride myself on speaking my mind.’

The apogee of a culture that defends passive agressive communication and venerates dishonesty and disempowerment is, of course, the election of Boris Johnson as PM.

See also, ‘I pride myself on speaking my mind.’

Yes, that's another one - it still means rude, which I don't find anything to be proud of.

@RussiasGreatestLoveMachine

But what’s so superior about shouting ‘Fuck off, you sleazy git ’ to a cat-caller, rather than saying ‘Thank you — I was nothing before you validated my existence just now’? What makes one ‘better’?

Love this.

And the latter is almost guaranteed to leave the sort of man who cats calls, scratching his head and confused. Yes I’m being an unmitigated snob with that comment.

Shouting ‘fuck off’ at cat-caller is ill-advised, at best.

Unless he's driving past in the world's slowest vehicle in a very quiet street, I doubt very much whether you'd manage to get the sentence out and be heard over the guffaws. And I don't know about snobby, but you're certainly a bit naive if you think that educated men in MC jobs don't catcall, because my daily walk home tells me otherwise.

@AllThePogs, you need to look up the definition of bumbling. You meant pottering, if you bumble, you are ineffective. Other than that I agree with you.
@TheWestIsTheBest to me and probably the OP, people getting digs in just haven't got the bottle to come out with it. If you've got an issue, sort it. Don't mix with people who you don't like, if you have to, then ignore. Getting digs in and using insults that won't get picked up on for half an hour, is pathetic. If it gives you a sense of satisfaction, there's something within you that you need to address, because you are just unpleasant to be around, as clever as you think you are.

Personally I find the blunt, say it as I find it attitude extremely rude. An excuse to be nasty.

Nannyogg, completely agree

to me and probably the OP, people getting digs in just haven't got the bottle to come out with it. If you've got an issue, sort it.

And, like the op, you find being blunt and just giving a blunt clear insult helps sorts the issue?

Surely, neither actually help sort an issue.

I still can't see how PA is worse than a blunt insult instead. There's no one argument on this thread that proves one is better than the other, imo.

@AlDanvers

to me and probably the OP, people getting digs in just haven't got the bottle to come out with it. If you've got an issue, sort it.

And, like the op, you find being blunt and just giving a blunt clear insult helps sorts the issue?

Surely, neither actually help sort an issue.

I still can't see how PA is worse than a blunt insult instead. There's no one argument on this thread that proves one is better than the other, imo.

Insults obviously don't sort issues, but there's a lot of blurring on here between an insult, to vent your feelings, and a challenge of bad behaviour. Taking the PA 'did you mean to be so rude?' or the assertive 'That was rude' as examples, these are not insults, but challenges. Imo doing this in a straightforward and assertive manner is infinitely better than being PA about it. Its clear, its honest and shows courage of conviction. I suppose if your purpose is just to insult someone, it matters less, though to strike at someone who has displeased you through an implication they are of low intelligence, rather than just hit them with the thing you're annoyed by, seems unnecessarily spiteful to me.

In my experience, people who say they like to 'tell it as it is', the 'you'll always know where you stand with me' brigade, are the very same people who take the greatest offence and are overly sensitive when anyone uses the same tactics on them. They can dish it out, but they can't take it. Mostly, though, they don't have to, because other people are generally less inclined to behave that way, so the straight talkers often get to straight talk unchallenged. I'm not saying that plain speaking is inherently wrong, but it's the people who make a point of announcing themselves as such, who seem to be the rudest and have the most aggressive manner.

Insults obviously don't sort issues, but there's a lot of blurring on here between an insult, to vent your feelings, and a challenge of bad behaviour. Taking the PA 'did you mean to be so rude?' or the assertive 'That was rude' as examples, these are not insults, but challenges. Imo doing this in a straightforward and assertive manner is infinitely better than being PA about it. Its clear, its honest and shows courage of conviction. I suppose if your purpose is just to insult someone, it matters less, though to strike at someone who has displeased you through an implication they are of low intelligence, rather than just hit them with the thing you're annoyed by, seems unnecessarily spiteful to me.

I disagree that there's any difference between the 2. Both are explicitly pointing out what was said was rude.

I don't see your version as assertive. Its confrontational. Confrontational is often confused with assertive. It really doesn't open up a dialogue any more than 'did you mean to be rude'. Certainly dont think it shows courage of conviction.

You have attached all these positive associations to confrontation, called it assertive and decided other ways of saying the same thing in a clear manner, is a negative thing.

Both those sentences clearly mean 'I found that to be rude' it's clear you believes it rude.

Again, there's no actual difference in how the 2 statements are being percieved.

So i don't get how one is better than the other.

Also remember that when you say 'that's rude' as a factual statement, you are wrong. Because it's your opinion that something is rude, doesn't make it a fact.

It's nothing to do with class.

It's the nature of a forum (how not to get deleted ). You're right, if a PP had written a direct insult she'd have been deleted. What's the point of that?

And it reflects trends in language (written in this case) which are always evolving.

I must be an oddity then because i use both depending on the mood im in. I would never just be rude to anyone for the sake of it either. However should someone be rude to me i will either be sarcastic/passive aggressive or just plain old rude back. Im very working class, and although i do tend to be blunt and to the point i would never try and use this as an excuse to be rude for the sake of it.

@TheWestIsTheBest

Surely rude is rude, whether it is delivered bluntly, or in a pass-ag manner? Personally I prefer the subtle dig, when someone doesn't realise they have been insulted until half an hour later, but its a tricky one to pull off. Of course the occasional fuck off is satisfying too.

'Rude' is subjective. Also, it's not necessarily bad and in some situations is absolutely the best response. That depends very much on the situation.

I'd be inclined to ask myself what I hoped to gain from the situation. Some confrontations are productive, can clear the air, and can be beneficial. I blew my stack with a bully once and let her know precisely how angry her behaviour had made me. Like a lot of bullies, once she was faced down she backed off, and is now civil.

Others confrontations are a pure waste of time and negative energy. I suppose the ultimate in passive aggression is to turn your back, walk off and leave them in mid-flow. Nothing says 'I don't even consider you worthy of notice' quite so eloquently. If someone's being a prick nothing is compelling me to engage.

Other times, sarcasm works really well. If someone's steamed over the road to call me a 'fucking cunt', I'm certainly not going to rise and engage on their particular level and don't particularly care if they feel patronised.

Choose your battles.

I love a good insult. My favourites:

NZ PM Robert Muldoon was asked about the number of New Zealanders leaving the country to work in Australia replied "By doing so, they are raising the average IQ of both countries."

Winston Churchill on Clement Attlee: "A modest man, who has much to be modest about."

Nancy Astor to Churchill: "If I were married to you, I'd put poison in your coffee." Churchill replied "If I were married to you, I'd drink it."

@jcyclops I think we would be friends, I love these 😂

Margaret Thatcher invited to an event, the Queen also invited. Horrors, they both arrived wearing similar clothes in the same colour. Thatcher wrote to the Palace to ask if their dressers could liaise in future to avoid it happening again. Reply from a lady in waiting "Her Majesty does not notice what other people are wearing".

Lots of people saying it's not a class thing, well if it's not it's certainly a thing of people who think they are superior and look down on others. Usually the same people will sneer at spelling or grammar mistakes (much of which is actually down to fast typing and auto corrects these days).

I know exactly what OP means. Phrases and put downs designed to be cutting said j. A super polite but barbed way. It amuses me though.

@DrSbaitso

Passive aggression is just a way to try to score a shot while retaining plausible deniability. Which they hurriedly claim the second anyone calls them out on it, because the only reason they do it that way is so they can pretend they didn't if they're visited with any consequences.

But it's not the same as a well-worded swipe that masquerades as politeness. I'm aware the distinction is highly subjective, and there will be some crossover, but they are two different things.

That's what is so toxic about PA behaviour. Somebody who has a phd in philosophy gave me the silent treatment for, well, if i had left them to it, it'd still be going on. Nobody noticed. It is shocking how horrible some people are and so long as nobody notices they see no problem with their poor character

@liveforsummer

Lots of people saying it's not a class thing, well if it's not it's certainly a thing of people who think they are superior and look down on others. Usually the same people will sneer at spelling or grammar mistakes (much of which is actually down to fast typing and auto corrects these days).

I know exactly what OP means. Phrases and put downs designed to be cutting said j. A super polite but barbed way. It amuses me though.

I don't see the connection, tbh. Sneering at someone's grammar is very much direct.

I think both PA and the 'call a spade a spade' crowd could do that.

A direct insult or put down is also barbed and designed to be cutting.

I see it a lot though, the grammar sneerers also like to use the fancy words and clever barbed put downs. Both are a display of superiority. Both crowds absolutely COULD do this but ime one certainly does it more than the other

@liveforsummer

I see it a lot though, the grammar sneerers also like to use the fancy words and clever barbed put downs. Both are a display of superiority. Both crowds absolutely COULD do this but ime one certainly does it more than the other

Fancy words? That makes it sound like yiu think this is based on education and tests not accurate for either side. Op clearly said that when a PA insult is given, everyone knows it was an insult.

So it is direct. Its just 2 different way to directly insult someone. You could say those who are in the 'call a spade a spade' group, do it to appear intimidating and intimidate others. Which is vile too.

I just can't agree one way of insulting someone is more superior or better or virtuous than another.

Bizarre thread. Linking rudeness with the generalised working classes, and then being proud of it?

Someone please make a Waitrose joke so we can play the canned laughter and go home.

I see it a lot though, the grammar sneerers also like to use the fancy words and clever barbed put downs.

Different people use different ranges of vocabulary in their normal speech. It's ridiculous to expect people to use the level of vocabulary you want them to when they are arguing with you or reacting to something unpleasant you've said. Sneering about fancy words and 'clever, barbed put-downs' is just inverse intellectual snobbery. I agree that sneering about people's grammar is unnecessary and unpleasant though.