To hate a certain type of middle-class insult?

[AllThePogs]

I am working class and grew up in a very rough area. If I am going to insult you, I will insult you. It is straightforward and you know where you stand.
But there is a certain kind of middle-class person who insults people using veiled language. I see it on MN all the time.
I can't stand it. It is a way to pretend to be polite and reasonable, while often throwing insults with a pretty vicious undertone.
And these people get away with it again and again.

@crazyjinglist

My theory is that PA behaviour comes from when your power and assertiveness isn't 'allowed'. So the prime culprits are people who have either culturally been prevented from actually speaking their minds (could be older women, trauma-impacted people, insecure men). I try to see it as a symptom of powerlessness. Those of us raised to speak our minds are lucky. We deal with it but don't have to live in their heads.

Or, to look at it another way, people who have been brought up in an environment where it's not acceptable to yell and swear aggressively at others tend to find more subtle, civilised and eloquent ways of expressing their disapproval or annoyance. I'm not sure that's really a bad thing.

You don't have to be aggressive.

@SwishSwishBisch why do you want to belittle people? I don't understand that desire at all.

Good point Goldfish, definitely more 'acceptable' historically for women to employ a passive form of speech, if at all. Also, there can be differences of perception between North and South I think. The Southern couching disagreement in softer terms can be seen as patronising and unclear by the plain speakers of the North whereas the Northern 'I say what I mean' can translate as rude bloody mindedness to those unused to such directness. There's a lot of misunderstandings between the two. Someone should write a sitcom.

[quote AllThePogs]@SwishSwishBisch why do you want to belittle people? I don't understand that desire at all.[/quote]
Really? Reading your posts on the housewives thread that surprises me.

@AllThePogs please don’t misunderstand me, I promise I don’t mean I enjoy belittling everyone! I would use a PA approach with someone who already considered themselves superior, if that makes sense? It’s often the only tactic that will take them down a peg or two.

@anon666

I agree with you.

I'm from a northern educated/middle class background. However, we are much more straightforward in our comms.

Moving down south it took me forever to work out what people meant.

I hate passive aggressive too, it makes me want to scream. Essentially it gives you no way to respond, even though you know full well what someone means by their veiled comments.

A couple of times I've confronted it, only to be told I'm imagining any insult and taking it "too personally".

My arse am I taking it too personally 😂😂😂. But you're not allowed to call it out. That's being aggressive.

Yes I totally agree with this.

Also interesting to see some comments on this thread accusing me of having a chip on my shoulder. This is the standard response from some when you point out class-based behaviour that is negative. I suspect they want people like me to aspire to any behaviour adopted by

@SwishSwishBisch okay.

@AllThePogs, is referring to someone as 'bumbling' PA or calling 'a spade a spade'. Thought you might be able to offer insight on this very important matter.
Has anyone ever accused you of myopia? Just wondered.
😃

@esloquehay Have you read my replies? I said clearly a few times that bumbling where I come from means pottering. Do you think someone talking about someone pottering is insulting them? I don't. Pottering or bumbling is fine.

Passive aggression is just a way to try to score a shot while retaining plausible deniability. Which they hurriedly claim the second anyone calls them out on it, because the only reason they do it that way is so they can pretend they didn't if they're visited with any consequences.

But it's not the same as a well-worded swipe that masquerades as politeness. I'm aware the distinction is highly subjective, and there will be some crossover, but they are two different things.

I think the only difference between the two is intellect.

And yes its not being able to come back on it that is the issue. So people on MN have said straightforwardly that me talking about someone bumbling around the house is an insult. I have been able to come back and say that where I come from bumbling means pottering. It gives me a chance to reply and clearly states what I think.
A passive-aggressive comment about me being insulting without referring to the word means I can't come back and explain. It is a way of making someone relatively powerless.

[quote AllThePogs]@esloquehay Have you read my replies? I said clearly a few times that bumbling where I come from means pottering. Do you think someone talking about someone pottering is insulting them? I don't. Pottering or bumbling is fine.[/quote]
I think the consensus is that you are misguided if you think it is not received by others as condescending or faintly patronising.

The definition of bumbling or pottering is 'doing pleasant but unimportant stuff, being aimless'. if you are 80 plus it may be seen as 'fine' but for others who are younger, less so. However, I am sure you do actually know that.

@CheltenhamLady Maybe it is different in your social circle? I am in my fifties and we as friends will say we were bumbling or pottering around the house at the weekend. As a lifestyle no I don't think it is enough in someone's life, just as walking the dog and watching Netflix is not enough for someone not elderly or disabled. But there is nothing wrong with it being part of someone's wider life.

[quote AllThePogs]@esloquehay Have you read my replies? I said clearly a few times that bumbling where I come from means pottering. Do you think someone talking about someone pottering is insulting them? I don't. Pottering or bumbling is fine.[/quote]
Yes, many people think that both ‘pottering’ and ‘bumbling’ are insulting. They’ve told you so. Choosing to ignore them doesn’t change that.

You are not the arbiter of what is and is not an insult. You don’t to inform us that ‘passive aggression is bad, but I can lob insults at people as long as I don’t consider them insults’. You do not get to tell other women that they spend their lives bumbling or pottering about, then tell them you’re not insulting them.

notaclownfish

"I am glad to say I have never seen a spade. It is obvious that our social spheres have been widely different".

Oh I like your work here!

I've never been comfortable with that phrase. It always seems to have lingering racist undertones.

Do you think someone talking about someone pottering is insulting them? I don't.

It absolutely is when you say it's fine for the elderly or that people who do it need challenges in their lives.

@AllThePogs

And yes its not being able to come back on it that is the issue. So people on MN have said straightforwardly that me talking about someone bumbling around the house is an insult. I have been able to come back and say that where I come from bumbling means pottering. It gives me a chance to reply and clearly states what I think. A passive-aggressive comment about me being insulting without referring to the word means I can't come back and explain. It is a way of making someone relatively powerless.

You’ve ‘explained’, we haven’t accepted said explanation and have reiterated that we find it insulting. You’re insisting that it’s not. You have insulted people, are taking no accountability and aren’t apologising.

How is this different to or better than people who say PA things and then refuse to own that they are insulting, take no accountability and refuse to apologise?

You’re being extremely hypocritical and appear to be wholly lacking in self awareness. Is that direct enough for you?

[quote ChangingLife]@RosieGuacamosie sarcasm IS passive aggressive.[/quote]
This is where I'd beg to differ. Passive aggression is used because the aggressor doesn't dare to say what they think directly and openly, so resorts to underhand methods (a bit like anonymous notes). They sabotage. They sulk. They can at all times deploy plausible deniability, so they can twist it around to being the target who is the aggressor (classic DARVO), all the while assuming an air of injured innocence. It's the ultimate in cowardice.

Sarcasm is different. It's open rudeness that isn't even pretending to be polite. It can also be effective. I had a parking one (it's a live one!-without diagrams unfortunately) only last weekend when during a visit to a friend I was accused of parking in someone else's spot (it was an ordinary road with no designated spaces) and she came steaming over to call me a 'fucking cunt'.

She was boiling for a row so I didn't give her one. I don't converse in that language. So whilst she lost her rag effing and ceeing, I cut her down with heavy sarcasm, all the while smiling politely and remaining completely calm. It's a far better way of diffusing any situation than retaliating and screeching profanities in return (exactly the response she wanted), but it is also direct confrontation with nothing passive about it. It took the heat out right of the situation as she simply had nowhere else to go with it. And she was also the one who ended up looking unhinged.

Who has the energy to stand outside shrieking at a neighbour? Not me. I'm not saying my friend's neighbour is beneath me, but her sort of behaviour certainly is.

Okay, some find saying someone is pottering or bumbling insulting, I get it.
What phrase would you use for spending say the weekend in the house slowly doing little jobs?

NB. If 'fuck off to the far side of fuck, and then when you get there, fuck off some more' is the worst of the eviscerating insults MN can come up with, OP, I suspect you have no reason to be concerned.

I'm still taking all this negativity about bumbling and pottering extremely personally.

[quote AllThePogs]@CheltenhamLady Maybe it is different in your social circle? I am in my fifties and we as friends will say we were bumbling or pottering around the house at the weekend. As a lifestyle no I don't think it is enough in someone's life, just as walking the dog and watching Netflix is not enough for someone not elderly or disabled. But there is nothing wrong with it being part of someone's wider life.[/quote]
@MeSanniesareBrannies, exactly.

@AllThePogs

You are not getting it, are you?

By commenting as you have and now with your clarification, can you really not see that you are being dismissive of swathes of people, both women and men who have chosen to live their lives differently from you?

It is alright to 'potter or bumble' at the weekend but not during the week when you feel that everyone should be a wage slave. Ok.

Insulting and lacking insight.

walking the dog and watching Netflix is not enough for someone not elderly or disabled
Ableist and insulting in one sentence, @AllThePogs. 👏👏👏👏👏🙄

@CheltenhamLady this is a discussion on another thread. And as I said there I would never say anything to anyone in real life. But yes I think living for years not doing much in your life, unless you are elderly or ill, is not good for most people. As I also said this comes from personal experience of seeing the long term impact again and again.
But people make all kind of choices that don't make them happier. Up to them.