To wonder how you feel today if you voted for Boris Johnson at the last election?

[Readyforthegoodlife]

It’s absolutely no surprise that Boris is behaving in this way but I cannot actually believe that we have a prime minister like this. He is utterly morally bankrupt. If you voted for him how do you feel now?

Great, thanks.

I think the mismanagement of funding under the Blair/Brown years has not helped

They got swept up in the boom/bust economy money sunk into the NHS that had to be paid back

There were many positives under Blair (who I voted for) but the longer outlook was not always well planned. The housing costs, foreign investments into property really took hold under Labour and they have admitted mistakes they have made

It’s not so black and white. I work for thr NHS, studied under both governments had to pay for my degree, now get UC (which for myself has worked out better than tax credits) and I am better off not everyone is

@OhWhyNot

That’s the thing people believe that all Tory polices negatively impacted working class people

I think it’s hard to understand for many how important it was to be able to buy your own council home, it was beyond so many peoples reach to buy before. It allowed many workings class people to be home owners this was such a shift

No the money wasn’t put back as it should have been not just under Tories but Labour too

Selling council housing was just privatisation of housing using another name.

Having non means testing social housing was and is a good thing. The problem is, the Tories didn’t like it because they personally couldn’t profit from it. So they badged right to buy as a way of people owning their own home.

But who benefits? Banks from mortgage profits and landlords who can build up a cheap property empire.

Social housing is a fantastic tool for social mobility. Having worked on the board of a housing association, I can see that the state can run social housing and put the profits back into the maintenance of houses - to benefit the taxpayer and tenants. I think this would have avoided epic house price increases and the 2008 financial crisis which can be traced back to encouraging those who could barely afford it to get a mortgage.

Once the banks ran out of customers who could afford it, they turn to those who can’t.

The Tories always have the bottom line profit interests of their friends at heart. They’ll pretend it benefits the majority, but any such benefit is incidental, not intentional.

They got swept up in the boom/bust economy money sunk into the NHS that had to be paid back

Paid back to who? Who do we owe debt to? And why is this debt always deemed a bad thing?

@AllThingsServeTheBeam

I'll bite.

• I don't particularly care that Boris Johnson had some parties/work events with the addition of cake. His behaviour was hypocritical and dishonest, but that's not egregious for our politicians. I don't imagine that shuffling the deck, changing some faces around and bringing the other lot in for four years will change that. There's reprehensible and useless individuals at all levels of British politics and in every party. We need fundamental change, and given that that's not possible at present, the best I can do is vote for myself, my family, and my community is to vote for the "least worst" option. At the last election, that was the Conservative party.

• Do I still believe that Corbyn and Labour would have been worse? Yes. I found him to be dangerous (comments praising Chavez, Maduro and Venezuela as an exemplar for all the world, Antisemitism etc). Do I care whether you think that's valid or true? No. I won't be canvassing the opinion of internet warriors before I cast my vote.

• Will I vote Conservative at the next election? Very likely, yes. Nadia Whittome's recent calls for an open border (to the entire world) immigration policy are an example as to why. Labour has been entirely captured by the transatlantic twitter class that seems to be inspired by whatever the latest idiocy to come out of America is. See also Starmer and Rayner taking the knee. Empty, gesture politics great for generating retweets, but absolutely useless to me as a voter.

EmmaGrundyForPM
he had been an accomplice in having a journalist beaten up

The journalist wasn't beaten up and Boris Johnson didn't supply the address his friend asked for;

"As we all know, Mr Johnson never provided me with any address and it is perfectly clear from the tape recording in question that he was simply placating a friend he considered to be letting off steam."

order-order.com/2013/03/27/darius-guppy-breaks-boris-silence/

@Adeleskirts

I’m also fine, I think work parties are ludicrous and we need to understand better but do believe we’d be in even more shit if Corbyn and Labour got in, so for me all good. It’s pick your poison. Always has been.

What "more shit"?

[quote Yeahthat]@AllThingsServeTheBeam

I'll bite.

• I don't particularly care that Boris Johnson had some parties/work events with the addition of cake. His behaviour was hypocritical and dishonest, but that's not egregious for our politicians. I don't imagine that shuffling the deck, changing some faces around and bringing the other lot in for four years will change that. There's reprehensible and useless individuals at all levels of British politics and in every party. We need fundamental change, and given that that's not possible at present, the best I can do is vote for myself, my family, and my community is to vote for the "least worst" option. At the last election, that was the Conservative party.

• Do I still believe that Corbyn and Labour would have been worse? Yes. I found him to be dangerous (comments praising Chavez, Maduro and Venezuela as an exemplar for all the world, Antisemitism etc). Do I care whether you think that's valid or true? No. I won't be canvassing the opinion of internet warriors before I cast my vote.

• Will I vote Conservative at the next election? Very likely, yes. Nadia Whittome's recent calls for an open border (to the entire world) immigration policy are an example as to why. Labour has been entirely captured by the transatlantic twitter class that seems to be inspired by whatever the latest idiocy to come out of America is. See also Starmer and Rayner taking the knee. Empty, gesture politics great for generating retweets, but absolutely useless to me as a voter.[/quote]

So why does it not matter what the Prime minister said or does but it does when it can to Corbyn?

If it’s about the policies, then fair enough. But on the one hand you’re saying it’s ok to express racists lying tendencies as long as they’re Tory (current Prime Minister) but not to express other tendencies because they’re Labour?

So for you, you could have an extreme right wing nasty arse of a leader as long as they had a blue rosette.

Which I suspect is the case for most die hard Tory voters.

[quote Yeahthat]@AllThingsServeTheBeam

I'll bite.

• I don't particularly care that Boris Johnson had some parties/work events with the addition of cake. His behaviour was hypocritical and dishonest, but that's not egregious for our politicians. I don't imagine that shuffling the deck, changing some faces around and bringing the other lot in for four years will change that. There's reprehensible and useless individuals at all levels of British politics and in every party. We need fundamental change, and given that that's not possible at present, the best I can do is vote for myself, my family, and my community is to vote for the "least worst" option. At the last election, that was the Conservative party.

• Do I still believe that Corbyn and Labour would have been worse? Yes. I found him to be dangerous (comments praising Chavez, Maduro and Venezuela as an exemplar for all the world, Antisemitism etc). Do I care whether you think that's valid or true? No. I won't be canvassing the opinion of internet warriors before I cast my vote.

• Will I vote Conservative at the next election? Very likely, yes. Nadia Whittome's recent calls for an open border (to the entire world) immigration policy are an example as to why. Labour has been entirely captured by the transatlantic twitter class that seems to be inspired by whatever the latest idiocy to come out of America is. See also Starmer and Rayner taking the knee. Empty, gesture politics great for generating retweets, but absolutely useless to me as a voter.[/quote]

His behaviour was hypocritical and dishonest, but that's not egregious for our politicians That poverty of ambition disgusts, but doesn't surprise me. There are decent MPs on all sides. Boris isn't one of them.

His behaviour was hypocritical and dishonest, but that's not egregious for our politicians.
Is it not? I tend to believe that politicians should – must, in fact – be held to higher standards than the rest of us.
And it wasn't 'just' hypocritical and dishonest. It's being investigated by the police.
More to the point, when challenged on it, rather than at least holding up his hands at the start and admitting to it all, he's defended, deflected, blustered and gone on nonsensical counterattacks. Of which the Jimmy S one is the most offensive, not to mention wrong-headed considering his own history when talking about this issue.

I have voted YABU as nobody other than his local constituents actually voted for Boris.
In the election, you vote for your lost favoured MP and rhr party with the most MPs voted for in local constituencies come into power. It just so happened at the last GE that was Boris. I did vote Cobservative but not for Boris. I can't stand the over inflated, blundering buffoon. I voted as I liked my local MP and what they stood for. Not all Tory MPs think the sun shines out of Boris' arse, just as not all Labour MPs are raving Corbynites.

Many working class people have been better off under the Tories
I'd love to see the working out behind this - or maybe it's just another "everyone knows that" down the pub wisdom not actually based on any facts or data, like the people who illogically call Tories a "low tax" party when the evidence points the other way. Did you know that the burden of taxation, both in absolute terms and as a proportion of GDP actually rose during the Thatcher years?

@Polkmn

I have voted YABU as nobody other than his local constituents actually voted for Boris. In the election, you vote for your lost favoured MP and rhr party with the most MPs voted for in local constituencies come into power. It just so happened at the last GE that was Boris. I did vote Cobservative but not for Boris. I can't stand the over inflated, blundering buffoon. I voted as I liked my local MP and what they stood for. Not all Tory MPs think the sun shines out of Boris' arse, just as not all Labour MPs are raving Corbynites.

But you knew you were getting Boris, didn't you? We all knew voting Labour would have led to Corbyn being Prime minister, as all the pathetic "but Corbyn" posts on any thread about Tories illustrates. You're really making a distinction that doesn't exist.

Did you know that many of our lives improved under Thatcher years … why do you think she was so popular with many working class people, with many immigrants (my Asian family love her)

It doesn’t suit the argument does it that all Tory polices are awful terrible and the poor suffer and all Tory voters are scum

Politics isn’t so black and white it isn’t so simplistic

I agree with you Yeahthat.

Nadia Whittome's recent calls for an open border (to the entire world) immigration policy are an example as to why. Labour has been entirely captured by the transatlantic twitter class that seems to be inspired by whatever the latest idiocy to come out of America is.

• this is what I'm saying. Middle class student politics, is what Labour is now. I personally think Kier Starmer's an adult, but he's the only one in the room at Labour at the moment. If they had a front bench with the likes of David Blunkett, Robin Cook, Mo Mowlem, this would be a different conversation entirely.

Feel fine. Certainly wouldn't prefer Starmer, Sturgeon or Drakeford.

@potniatheron

Hi truthfullylying, I think we're almost getting down to a philosophical issue, which is what do people actually have in mind when they vote. If I'm understanding you correctly, when you go into the voting booth, you have in mind the proper long term, decades hence, and a comparison of living standards in the UK and other European countries. You think of all the 70 million peopple in the UK, rather than you and your network. That's cool. For me, when I go in the voing booth, I've got in mind the parties' manifestos and the interviews they give on TV before the election, and what their policies will mean for me and my family over the next 5 years. How we will live, our livelihoods, our living standrads over the next five years. Because that's what I am focussed on - me and my family being OK over the next five years.

So we have two different perspectives when we vote, and I personally think yours isthe more privileged perspective, but of course, that doesnt assign any greater moral weight to your perspective or mine. They're just different. You're doing you and I'm doing me. That's all good.

If Labour have better policies for me at the next election, I'll vote Labour. But I have no idea currently what Labour's policies are, other than woman is just a feeling, and lots of party members hate the leader and want Jeremy Corbyn back. So if Kier wnats my vote, he better pull his finger out.

Finally I should add that I understand the structural issues you refer to. I would suggest that they are attributable to a number of macroeconomic issues which are beyond the control of any British government - the flood of cheap debt in the early 00s, ultra low interest rates since 2007, the rise in asset prices across the developed world, the economic growth of China, the shift to a digital world. In social terms, the effects of social media and hyper-individualisation and the collapse of religion and regional identities also play a role. In my view.

So we have two different perspectives when we vote, and I personally think yours isthe more privileged perspective I reject your description of me as privileged. You have nothing upon which to base that and it is inaccurate!

OhWhyNot - yes! She was super popular with a lot of immigrant families. My family was split...my grandmother told me the Tories were 'only for rich people', my dad liked her cos of right to buy. It's not black and white but so many people behave like it is.

All politicans are the same...I ust try to pick the least worst for me and mine.

Nadia Whittome's recent calls for an open border (to the entire world) immigration policy are an example as to why. Labour has been entirely captured by the transatlantic twitter class There are wacky Tories too, what matters is party policy not what one far-leaning MP says. Labour really hasn't been captured, the latest NEC makeup is decidedly centre.

Middle class student politics, is what Labour is now No, what was the partially the case under Corbyn is admin history. The drop in membership after Starmer took over was a certain type of person leaving.

@potniatheron

Exactly. Gordon Brown is another who I'd put in that category.

Hi truthfullylying, I didn't say that. I said that "I personally think yours [ie your perspective'] isthe more privileged perspective".

I didn't describe you as privileged because I don't know you. I also made it clear that I was only epxressing my personal view, which is not very important, since we don't know each other. I just thought your position was interesting and it got my thinking about the varying things that people take into account when they vote, and how those differ from person to person.

@potniatheron

I agree with you Yeahthat.

Nadia Whittome's recent calls for an open border (to the entire world) immigration policy are an example as to why. Labour has been entirely captured by the transatlantic twitter class that seems to be inspired by whatever the latest idiocy to come out of America is.

• this is what I'm saying. Middle class student politics, is what Labour is now. I personally think Kier Starmer's an adult, but he's the only one in the room at Labour at the moment. If they had a front bench with the likes of David Blunkett, Robin Cook, Mo Mowlem, this would be a different conversation entirely.

What exactly did Nadia say?

My understanding is that she’s tried to make an evidence based argument for freedom of movement across the world. One of her arguments is that if you’re rich, you can go where you like but if you’re not, you’ll be exploited and have to stay put (by westerners - we benefit from this cheap labour). That we in the West can’t have it both ways of benefiting from our location through better resources, benefiting from cheap labour and not letting others benefit too.

It’s an interesting argument actually especially given that the British empire was founded on a parasitic approach to world domination.

She also made the point about the evidence of benefits to immigration.

The reason it won’t work is that we live in a capitalist society which ultimately is based on the premise of exploiting labour for profit.

@Yeahthat - maybe, I personally think he made some big mistakes, like giving independence to BoE. I also think his policy making was sometimes more driven by his hatred of his next door neightbour than political expediency!

But yes he was a lot better than the current lot (although I did read an interview with Rachel Reeve recently and thought she was pretty good)

@OhWhyNot

Did you know that many of our lives improved under Thatcher years … why do you think she was so popular with many working class people, with many immigrants (my Asian family love her)

It doesn’t suit the argument does it that all Tory polices are awful terrible and the poor suffer and all Tory voters are scum

Politics isn’t so black and white it isn’t so simplistic

Very true, many Asians have a fantastic work ethic and have the family back up to make businesses successful.

But not everyone can be a self made millionaire nor are ALL tory policies bad, atm i can't think of one, though there must be surely? I was going to suggest environmental protection but then they have cut funding to the EA so it wont be enforced.....

But when a footballer has to shame a Tory Government into funding means tested school meals (for the very poorest) during a pandemic, then something is very wrong with that party - in govt spending terms it was a very small amount.

They can't but help themselves to try and xxxx over the poor where ever they can.

@potniatheron

Hi truthfullylying, I didn't say that. I said that "I personally think yours [ie your perspective'] isthe more privileged perspective".

I didn't describe you as privileged because I don't know you. I also made it clear that I was only epxressing my personal view, which is not very important, since we don't know each other. I just thought your position was interesting and it got my thinking about the varying things that people take into account when they vote, and how those differ from person to person.

My perspective is not privileged. Privileged means: enjoying a privilege or having privileges. A privilege is a special advantage. A view can not have privileges, but a person holding a view can - however I am not privileged.

It is a phrase many Tories use to shut down people who disagree with them - they say people only want x y or z because of 'privilege'.

It is precisely because I do not have a privileged background that I favour greater fairness and genuine social mobility.