To think a lot of lonely people have brought it on themselves?

[LovelyYellowLabrador]

Just been watching a channel 4 thing on YouTube about lonely people
Most of them were like-no one calls…. They don’t see anyone all day
They maybe have had a marriage where their partner was the only other person they spent time with so when threat person has passed away they have no one else

Just think people need to think more about what they are doing
They expect their adult children to call them all the time and visit
Yet don’t stop to pause to think have I been a good parent am I draining or overly negative

Or they could think right no one’s called me, who am I going to call
How am I going to make and keep some friends

I moved away when I got married and became isolated because of the nature of the relationship (only realised when I moved) toxicity all round and my own family wouldn’t visit or care about what I was going through. . Now I’ve got out of the situation I’m very depressed because of years being on my own around toxic people and losing out on potential friendships. I have lost my confidence to even talk to others. But to everyone else I look normal as I can hold conversations which are probably verbal diarrhoea on my part anyway. Now my mother wants to be my best friend but I have no time for her. She only rings to be nosey really, conversations are so empty she doesn’t have my back and never has and but she will always deny any wrong doing or neglect. I’ve gone really low contact and actually have an aversion to speaking to her. Father never bothered anyway. I don’t see the point in maintaining pointless phone conversations and tick box visits. I get nothing from them now as I’m so used to being on my own. I have been in hospital with my little one, could have done with family around but all they think they need to do is make a phone call to show how much they care. I would love a social life but haven’t found any friends firstly due to being isolated and now I just don’t know how and where to meet people and also feel I’ve lost my social skills, lots of anxiety, can’t manage my time, no organisation so prefer to stay home (I work from home too) lockdown made things worse but now I’m ok on my own as I’m so used to it. Friends would be great but not holding my breath. Feel I’ve missed the boat now. Lost touch with the ones I moved away from. Just trying to focus on my health and savings so when the time comes I have choices.

@Mischance totally agree, as a single person you’re frequently left out because people want to socialise with couples. Not to mention some women suddenly become worried you’ll go off with their husband

YANBU.
OP Isn't slagging off the people who have TRIED, and haven't ended up with any friends.

She's talking about people who do nothing, and expect friends to fall out of the sky, or be courted. Or people who don't behave.

The world has changed, if you're busy with work/life and never go anywhere you won't naturally meet people, like school or uni. YOU have to go out, YOU have to send people messages, arrange things.

If you won't do that fine but don't moan about it. Social anxiety, introversion blah2 everyone has loads of excuses for why they think they don't need to make any effort.

It's very, very rarely the case that people are lonely because they don't bother to make an effort. There are all sorts of reasons people might be lonely or struggle with friendships.

• they're scared of rejection, so it's easier not to try.
• they're scared of meeting new people and embarrassing themselves, --- they're unwell (mentally or physically) and can't actually leave the house or make the effort to visit other people very often.
• they have depression and/or anxiety and find simple tasks like calling a friend or going out for coffee incredibly difficult.
• they've been so wrapped up in other aspects of life - work, relationships, raising a family - that they haven't been able to prioritise friends and then when they realise, it's too late.

Yes, some people are unpleasant and push people away, but how many of those people are unpleasant due to an underlying illness or problem that leads to them feeling depressed and low and lonely?

I used to have a client who was an alcoholic - she's sadly now passed away. But for her, it was a vicious cycle. She struggled with her MH (had several diagnosed illnesses) and drank as a result of that.

When she was sober, she was lovely and a joy to talk to, but her illnesses meant she couldn't stop drinking, and when she drank she was unpleasant and people got fed up of dealing with her binges and her behaviour. So when she sobered up, she felt lonely, so she drank and pushed people away even further...

Nobody owes anyone friendship - so yes, in a way you do need to look at your own actions, but it's never as straightforward as people just not trying hard enough.

Does it matter if they brought it on themselves? It only matters that people find a way out.

Loneliness is a trap. Once you're in it, you need company so much that it scares people off. Then you become a bit unused to people and come across as strange. Then you might become angry or bitter that you tried to make friends but they rejected you for being too needy or weird.

It's a bit like saying homeless people just need a roof over their heads - maybe for a small proportion but for many people it's a complex situation that can't be put right overnight. For example mental or physical health issues, mobility problems, poverty, fear of going out etc.

@Kelly7889

Loneliness is a state of mind. I don't think it has anything to do with having a big family or no family, or seeing loads of people or none. You can work in a room of a hundred people and be lonely, even if you know them all. Lonely people are lonely because they are not happy with themselves.

I think this is probably a bit of a sweeping statement.

If it was just a 'state of mind' and 'not happy with themselves', then I'll just have a quick chat to myself, then the feeling of loss and loneliness I have sometimes after my DW died last year (only early 40s) would dissipate.

I don't actually feel unhappy, actually quite positive, but I do feel lonely often, despite having plenty of close friends and family, who I see regularly. I think loneliness is more complex.

Agree with @pyri - there are so many people on mn who say their dh is the only company they need, or are mocking about "school gate mums" and people who dont just "go to work to work" like them but are actually friends with their colleagues and -gasp - socialise with them outside of work! They dont seem to think they are only one failed relationship or early death away from regular companionship to none.

Also I feel a lot of people get used to the madness of that stage of life with partner, young kids, working full time etc and friendships just fade away through being too busy/exhausted to maintain them. Then 15 years later kids have all moved out, you're retired or only working part time and have time and space to invest in friends again but all your old friends haven't heard from you in years and it's harder to make new ones, most people already have tight friendship groups etc.

Obviously that's not everyone and loads of people are lonely through no fault of their own. But I think a lot of people are guilty of putting making and keeping good friends low on their priority list and then being surprised when they in turn aren't at the top of anyone else's list.

Honestly, just what is the point of blaming people who are already in a bad situation? And as others have said OP, what makes you think you can generalise to this extent?

I've had very lonely and very sociable times in my life. I've moved a lot and at my current stage of life, with three school-age children and a full-time job, there honestly isn't time to develop close friendships locally, much as I'd like to.

It does worry me as I wonder whether I'll be too old and tired to find new friends by the time the kids need me less. But whatever happens, I'll know better than to blame myself. People end up lonely for more reasons than you could ever imagine.

YABU.

What is your own experience of loneliness and how old are you, @LovelyYellowLabrador ?

Sometimes I guess. 20 years ago my grandparents decided to move to deepest darkest Cornwall, almost 100 miles away from their children and grandchildren. My mum did express concerns at the time that if they moved that far away she wouldn't be able to care for them in their old age, which my nan decided to interpret as "go far away I don't want to look after you in your old age".

It was all good for about a decade as granddad could still drive and they'd regularly come back to see us all and we would all go down to theirs as often as we could. Another 10 years on my granddad has cataracts, is very frail and obviously can't drive now. My nan has dementia and has gone into a nursing home, leaving granddad by himself. My mum no longer drives due to Parkinsons Disease, her husband drives her down when he can but he is still working and often on call. Me and the rest of the grandchildren all have our own children/jobs /busy lives etc and we can't often spare an entire day plus the cost of fuel to travel down to Cornwall and back. The drive also scares me with the amount of people on the road now and Cornwall is always busy as fuck these days.

I hate to think of my granddad being lonely, I so wish they had both stayed closer to us all and I miss them both hugely.

@fairylightsandwaxmelts I agree that mental health and problems can lead people to be unpleasant, but it doesn't make their behavior any easier to deal with. My Dad can be vicious sometimes, then as nice as pie the next time...and he still expects people to be around!

One of my SIL's is setting herself up for social isolation and her family feel powerless to do anything about it, as her decisions don't make sense to us. She chose to WFH pre-pandemic, so she hardly meets anyone through work; bought a large, expensive house so doesn't have much extra money to go out; no hobbies; hasn't kept up much with old friends...but these are her choices.

@fairylightsandwaxmelts

It's very, very rarely the case that people are lonely because they don't bother to make an effort. There are all sorts of reasons people might be lonely or struggle with friendships.

• they're scared of rejection, so it's easier not to try.
• they're scared of meeting new people and embarrassing themselves, --- they're unwell (mentally or physically) and can't actually leave the house or make the effort to visit other people very often.
• they have depression and/or anxiety and find simple tasks like calling a friend or going out for coffee incredibly difficult.
• they've been so wrapped up in other aspects of life - work, relationships, raising a family - that they haven't been able to prioritise friends and then when they realise, it's too late.

Yes, some people are unpleasant and push people away, but how many of those people are unpleasant due to an underlying illness or problem that leads to them feeling depressed and low and lonely?

I used to have a client who was an alcoholic - she's sadly now passed away. But for her, it was a vicious cycle. She struggled with her MH (had several diagnosed illnesses) and drank as a result of that.

When she was sober, she was lovely and a joy to talk to, but her illnesses meant she couldn't stop drinking, and when she drank she was unpleasant and people got fed up of dealing with her binges and her behaviour. So when she sobered up, she felt lonely, so she drank and pushed people away even further...

Nobody owes anyone friendship - so yes, in a way you do need to look at your own actions, but it's never as straightforward as people just not trying hard enough.

It's not straightforward, yes, but many people don't even think that they need to make any effort. There may be issues preventing them from doing so but the blame should be on those. Not 'other people' and 'waah waah the world owes me friendship'.

Maybe I'm biased and projecting, because these sorts of people always seem to 'latch on' to me. I used to be a people pleaser, want to make people comfortable, 'reach out' etc but realised they they CBA. So I stopped and am now much happier with people who actually reciprocate.

Whether they have social anxiety, depression etc is not my problem, I'm not anybody's emotional support human. In fact quite a few of these people actually said they were jealaous of me. When I'm not even that sociable! I have ADD, takes a few days to recover from a night out etc etc. But I make the reciprocate and don't flake, if I'm feeling down I tell people and make it up to them.

@giveyou2reasons

I'm one who doesn't feel the need for many people in my daily life. A "DH is my best friend" person. If I outlive him, I trust that I will be able to find a friend, if I want more interaction than I get from my family. After all, I won't be the only one who's lost their best friend and doesn't have a large group of close friends to fill in the gap. I can be friendly and sociable, but I don't need a lot of people to feel happy in my day-to-day life, and there's nothing wrong being satisfied with less social interaction.

Yes, sometimes people are lonely because of their actions. People bring all sorts of things on themselves. In my case, I'd rather live my life as I wish. Stressing myself over spending my life maintaining extraneous relationships I don't currently need or desire only because I might outlive my DH and end up feeling lonely... seems rather strange to me!

I'm glad to hear that you and your DH are best friends. It's lovely, and as it should be and I've been exactly where you are. But. What if he leaves this earth before you? What happens when he or you become ill physically ill and you don't have those long nurtured friendships with people who know you, know you both well? Friends you feel comfortable to share even the dark times with? Who will be there for you? Do you have close family? It's worth thinking about. I don't have loads of friends, just a few who I love dearly, who I can be my true self with, and with whom there is a history of mutual support.

I have also noticed on MN that people have very high expectations of friends. If a friendship circle is active, they have to invite everyone every time or they are not friends. If something bad happens, everyone must not only text immediately, but lots afterwards, arrange meet-ups and be very giving and those that aren't must be cut off.

I tend to take a more pragmatic view: not that you should accept really poor or unpleasant treatment, but that keeping a wide circle of people, some close, some more just friends to hang out with occasionally, and accept not everyone is going to be able to step forward every single time, or many times if you have lots of issues, is better. Sometimes one friend has stepped forward, sometimes I've done it, I also have friends I might not speak to for 6 months, then we reconnect and really enjoy it.

People are very busy, stressed and have their own lives, and the expectations on them as 'friends' can be too burdensome and that's a shame, because I think different types of friendship can be great, and not all have to be in the model of close daily texting, constant inclusion and that you are endlessly emotionally available if there's a crisis. It's just not realistic.

When you are younger, especially in the busy family life stage. It is important to make effort. I'm a lone parent and I make so much effort to maintain friendships.

That assumes you have friends in the first place!
Many people don't.

When I left school, FB and the internet didnt exist. I havent stayed in touch with any of those university (let alone school) friends because we've all moved to other places.
Other people have moved around a lot and havent been able to established long enduring friendships.
Some areas are more opened to newcomers than others so depending on where you now live, it mioght be easier/harde to make new friendships etc etc etc

Without intending to blame anybody, one of the things I find deeply weird about MN is that it is somehow pathetic to have friends or try hard to make them. Numerous posts about how posters don't need anyone except their DH and DC, find their friends create unnecessary 'drama', find them clingy and needy, find school mums cliquey and terrifying... etc etc.

I myself have few friends because I have moved around a lot and did not go to school or uni in the UK. But I keep trying. Tomorrow I am going to a book club with a bunch of strangers.

You get back what you put in I feel. Parents who have children who don't visit, there is often a reason. That parent hasn't been there for them when needed in many cases. Not all of course.
If you make an effort to work at friendships throughout life, those people will usually still be there when you need them.
People who are lonely often don't make an effort to get out and meet people, put the work in. They sit and wait for the world to come to them, or they haven't been good friends/parents themselves.
What goes around comes around.

Illness has meant I haven’t been able to socialise in my 40’s as much as I would have liked.

It’s true what they say, you soon find out who your real friends are. It seems I have none.

I still get contacted when they want to have a moan about how awful things are for them, ask if they can borrow this, that or the other or ask if my DH can do some diy for them but they don’t even send me happy birthday messages.

I’m struggling through with a few part time hours, once I am no longer fit to work I won’t see a soul.

I met one guy who was obviously terribly lonely. After spending a few hours with him, I could quickly see why he was so lonely. He was a horrible person. Constantly saying nasty things about complete strangers we saw in the street or on the metro. After a few hours, I just made an excuse and left as I could not stand to be around him any longer. I have no doubt the reason he had no friends or social life was because he was so awful to be around.

@JanisMoplin hope it goes ok! Meet-up groups are also great as they are full of people who, for whatever reason, want to Meet Up, in fact, I think Meet Up book groups exist.

[quote OnwardsAndSideways1]@JanisMoplin hope it goes ok! Meet-up groups are also great as they are full of people who, for whatever reason, want to Meet Up, in fact, I think Meet Up book groups exist.[/quote]
It will be ok because I have low expectations of this kind of thing. I don't expect to make great friends, just have a glass of wine, talk about a good book, get out of the house and have adult convo with someone other than DS...

I WFH full time now and I can certainly see my life getting smaller, so trying to fight that.

It's not straightforward, yes, but many people don't even think that they need to make any effort.

I don't think that's necessarily true.
Humans are social beings, we all crave connexion. So I don't think that people think 'they don't need to make an effort' because we are hardwired to actually keep those connexions going.

I do think that the structure of our socieyt has changed a lot. People used to live close to family and their friends from primary school. Not being lonely was relativekly straight forward then.
Nowadays, people move away from they were born. They often moved several times in the their lifetime. It's a completely different ball park ESPECIALLY because the ones who have stayed where they were born/raised have kept the same mentality.
Just look at threads on here - newcomers who cant find anyone to befriends 'because they already have their onw friends so why make the effort'. People grumbling that so and so moved away so THEY have to make all the effort to stay in contact/see each other etc...
I am finding that in areas where people are moving a lot and newcomers are the norm rather than the exception, the attitude is different. I mean I live in a small town and I have people who have been there 40 years telling me they STILL don't belong there and have very few friends..... Compare that to friend of mine living in the centre of city who can meet people, make friedns etc....

On the top of that, you have the fact our society is extremely individualistic which doesnt help.

What an awful thread showing very little understanding of the situations people find themselves in.

I find myself alone at 45. Parents dead (not my fault). Only child (also not my fault). Split with ex 3 years ago (his use of prostitutes and alcohol caused the breakdown of the relationship).
Always made an effort to meet friends and join groups.
However, since the pandemic, all but 1 person have completely disappeared despite my best efforts. People have retreated into family groups (I'm in a different country so appreciate the experience in the UK might be different). No one has wanted to meet up. Most of my hobby groups have been cancelled for most of the last two years with only a couple of things happening occasionally.

You can very very easily end up lonely. And I don't know what you are supposed to do if you keep trying to arrange meet ups and no one wants to. Don't know what you are supposed to do if your family dies.

I find the whole "brought it on themselves" statement deeply offensive. I don't really know what the OP's point is.
What are you doing to ensure lonely people in your circle of acquaintances aren't left out because it can never be all one way?
There's only so many times a person can suggest meeting up and be turned down before they have to give up.

My IL's have no friends and are NC with all of their family including their 2 children, 4 grand children etc. They both had lots of siblings and went NC with them including their own parents. They are deeply unpleasant people and say and do horrible things, I am always amazed how well my DH and his DS have turned out.

@GrendelsGrandma

Does it matter if they brought it on themselves? It only matters that people find a way out.

Loneliness is a trap. Once you're in it, you need company so much that it scares people off. Then you become a bit unused to people and come across as strange. Then you might become angry or bitter that you tried to make friends but they rejected you for being too needy or weird.

It's a bit like saying homeless people just need a roof over their heads - maybe for a small proportion but for many people it's a complex situation that can't be put right overnight. For example mental or physical health issues, mobility problems, poverty, fear of going out etc.

Yes, all of this! It's convenient to say that lots of lonely people brought it on themselves, because that absolves the rest of us from an obligation to help them.

Some people will be horrible, but we have no way how they got to be like that. I think that there is a lot of hidden pain which manifests as aggression or meanness, or whatever.

I used to work in a Post Office, so I spent a lot of time chatting to obviously lonely people (mostly older women, but not universally). Every story was different, but there was rarely a broken-down relationship with children. Sometimes they moved away for education and never came back, or they have their own families and never find time, or haven't the money to travel to see their parents. Very occasionally, there was a serious rift, but it was rare.