How many of you have had an encounter like this with a man??

[RozHuntleysLeftHand]

Video in twitter thread linked.
It's a man being fucking EXTREMELY creepy to a 17 yr old girl who's just trying to shop in a thrift store.

I'm betting it's most of us, right?
My first one was when I was 10- FUCKING TEN!
Creepy ice cream man asking all sorts of inappropriate questions, leering at me and asking if I was alone and where my parents were.
Then basically just continued.

I can't even count the amount of interactions like this I had when I was younger.

This is so, so relatable it's painful.

It actually made me feel sick watching, all the fear, panic and not knowing how to get out of it, the fear that if you simply tell them to fuck off or something that they will get aggressive or worse, stalk you when you get out.

Serious serial killer vibes as well trying to get her to come work on his fucking remote property, someone get the sniffer dogs out there.

For fuck sake.

Video here

AIBU to think this is just normal life for so many girls and women?
And AIBU to think why the fuck can't we get this fucking sorted in 2022??

[quote Mommabear20]@phishy no they're not meaning less statistics to me, but there are countless crimes that women commit on other women or men, and crimes that men commit against men, I simply don't see the benefits of living in constant fear and people. [/quote]
That's the thing though innit @Mommabear20.

I can't speak for you, but I'm not in constant fear of humans.
That'll be because women don't tend to scare me in the least. Because they are not, as a class, scary.
But men are. Because, as PP rightly pointed out, 97% of violent crime is committed by males.

I'm not in 'constant fear' & am irritated by your Straw Man tactic with that. I'm fucking wary though. On my guard. So are the vast, vast majority of women.

Good for you that you are not, maybe that's because you are one of the few lucky ones without horrible experiences. Word of advice though - don't mistake complacency for safety.

@ChargingBuck

Some Men do speak out, try listening. And most don't, try paying attention *@mummykel16*

That said it would help if courts gave proper sentences (like life) to people who kidnap women drag em into a van and cause permanent irreparable damage.
Prison is not a deterrent to a man who is prepared to do that.
It might get a perpetrator off the street, but it doesn't heal the woman does it?
Change doesn't come from increasingly draconian punishments from 'above'.
It comes from tiny acts at the grass roots. Education. Small interventions. The kind of small acts of conscious allyship so many men could make every day, but don't - because men are conditioned to think that speaking out against 'just locker room banter' will get them labelled a cissy. We all know what Angry & Controlling men do to women & cissies ...

Also, by "monstering" the men who kidnap women drag em into a van you are playing into the dangerous myth that only monsters hurt women. That the streets are the most unsafe places, & that all VAWG is pre-planned by a stranger predator.
It's bollocks.
Women & girls are at FAR more risk of harm in their own homes. See also relative's & friend's homes, offices, sports clubs, hobby groups. Seeing the pattern yet?
Because the VAST majority of assaults on women are committed BY MEN THEY ALREADY KNOW & should have damn well been able to trust.

So I think piss off with your NAMALT nonsense.
Uncle Geoff at the xmas party is a very much more real risk to girls than your hysterical image of monsters, culled from popular media & popular myth.

PS apologies in advance is 'cissy' now has more complicated connotations, I'm not using it as a perjorative, just a descriptor to indicate how toxic masculinity tends to respond to the non-toxic.
So please don't jump on it, I'm an old bat who can't always keep up with emerging vocab.

I answered a question about why men who aren't like that don't speak out, some do. I will tell you what a life sentence would do and I mean life, they won't be doing it again. Have you really never seen men calling out some of this stuff only to be told not to worry because it's only banter, by other men and women?

Change for this needs to come from the parent/s and families, which considering who does most the parenting I had hoped would already be bearing fruit.

I will tell you what a life sentence would do and I mean life, they won't be doing it again.

I will tell you that this will only take ONE man off the streets, Meanwhile with so few assaults even reported let alone prosecuted let alone resulting in a conviction that it's more effective to prevent than focus solely on what you see as a 'cure'.
I don't see a 'cure' in a current set-up that means even the rapes that get reported only result in a 1.4% conviction rate.
Those 98.6% guys are still out & about.

The only remedy is the small societal changes I wrote about upthread - creating an environment where boys are brought up in a more nurturing & less 'boys will be boys' culture, where they are not conditioned into toxic masculinity, are 'allowed' to express their emotions & articulate their problems, so that they grow into men who are comfortable saying "hey dude - not cool" when they witness the "only banter" that you referenced.
That small act, in a society where millions of such small acts are being actively promoted to boys & by men, is what will help stop some, I'd love to hope many, men from "doing it at all" rather than one man doing it again.

Have you really never seen men calling out some of this stuff only to be told not to worry because it's only banter, by other men and women?
Erm ... why are you asking? - it's kinda the main point of my second paragraph in my post you quoted.

Have a noodle around some criminology studies re: cause & effects of prison sentencing for violent males, & you might be amazed at how you change your view about deterrents.

@mummykel16

Change for this needs to come from the parent/s and families, which considering who does most the parenting I had hoped would already be bearing fruit.

Eh?

Women have been doing most of the parenting for time immemorial. Change isn't down to mothers. It's down to all of us, family or whoever.

And men are part of that, but as it doesn't affect them so directly, many men don't even recognise that it happens. Try a small survey.

Also - men don't tend to listen to women as hard as they listen to men. So for women to feel real change about eg harassment, it needs to be men that are doing the changing, because they sure haven't stopped yet, no matter how many aeons women have been asking them to cut it out.

@ChargingBuck

I will tell you what a life sentence would do and I mean life, they won't be doing it again.

I will tell you that this will only take ONE man off the streets, Meanwhile with so few assaults even reported let alone prosecuted let alone resulting in a conviction that it's more effective to prevent than focus solely on what you see as a 'cure'.
I don't see a 'cure' in a current set-up that means even the rapes that get reported only result in a 1.4% conviction rate.
Those 98.6% guys are still out & about.

The only remedy is the small societal changes I wrote about upthread - creating an environment where boys are brought up in a more nurturing & less 'boys will be boys' culture, where they are not conditioned into toxic masculinity, are 'allowed' to express their emotions & articulate their problems, so that they grow into men who are comfortable saying "hey dude - not cool" when they witness the "only banter" that you referenced.
That small act, in a society where millions of such small acts are being actively promoted to boys & by men, is what will help stop some, I'd love to hope many, men from "doing it at all" rather than one man doing it again.

Have you really never seen men calling out some of this stuff only to be told not to worry because it's only banter, by other men and women?
Erm ... why are you asking? - it's kinda the main point of my second paragraph in my post you quoted.

Have a noodle around some criminology studies re: cause & effects of prison sentencing for violent males, & you might be amazed at how you change your view about deterrents.

You don't know what my views are about deterrents I'm not even sure I do sometimes, but I am sure when men get away with it more are likely to follow.

I don't know the answers but alienating those few who try to help isn't clever.
I don't see this shouting out of car windows beeping the horn talking shyte to strangers thinking it's manly not crossing the road to put a woman's mind at ease changing in mine or my DC lifetimes

@HighlandPony
You've possibly grown up in an area were other men did know your Dad/Brothers/Male relatives, so you've had the protection from inappropriate sexual behaviour from childhood. You are seen then as off limits because you are another man's property, who will react, not because you are respected in anyway.
I'm from a rough bit of Liverpool, you have to be able to hold your own. But it still happens to the 'Psycho gobby bitches', even if you can give out, its still happened. Travel outside your city with your underage DD/DN etc and you'll soon see the behaviour. Yeah you can mouth off at them, but its meant that you couldn't just go about your business and enjoy your day, unlike your male relatives.

Men do know what some other men are like, the ones who say they don't are liars, watch them when they are out with a DD DN OH DW they love, they are much more aware

Christ on a bike.

She handled that so well.

I was watching my kids swim last week in a gym and much a older guy (appeared to be a regular member) was talking to the young receptionist (21) about horse riding (he brought it up) and if she still had those riding boots and that her friend should also get into horse riding and get those boots. Creepy.

I was thinking "shut the f**k up" but they were all being jovial (probably humouring him) so I didn't say anything. I should've called him out on this in public.

Reading what others have said about defence starting with attitude I realise I'm guilty of not helping to make my daughters assertive. There are times I tell them to hug their grandparents (in order not to be rude) but what am I teaching them?? Do stuff, even if you don't want to, to make people happy?! I need to get a grip

You don't know what my views are about deterrents

ViewS, no, which is why I suggested some reading material you might find interesting. A kindly gesture, no need to be snippy about it.

View - sure I do, as you posted expressly to state it!

I don't see this shouting out of car windows beeping the horn talking shyte to strangers thinking it's manly not crossing the road to put a woman's mind at ease changing in mine or my DC lifetimes

Me neither. Depressing innit.

And scary how many men just cannot fathom that this so-called low-level harassment is the thin end of the rape culture wedge. Reckon we can agree on that no problem @mummykel16

@whatever1980

Reading what others have said about defence starting with attitude I realise I'm guilty of not helping to make my daughters assertive. There are times I tell them to hug their grandparents (in order not to be rude) but what am I teaching them?? Do stuff, even if you don't want to, to make people happy?! I need to get a grip

No grips needed, instead of beating yourself up, how about congratulating yourself for seeing the light?

You might enjoy this article @whatever1980 :)
thebodyisnotanapology.com/magazine/your-child-should-never-be-forced-to-hug-anyone-yes-including-a-relative-here-are-7-reasons-why-2/

Can you even imagine being a bald middle aged man thinking you’d ever have a shot with a teenage girl like this? What goes through their mind, seriously? They must look in the mirror and have some sort of body dysmorphia, Shallow Hal style believing they’re some sort of Adonis. It’s just mental. What a creep and he kept going as well, it was so obvious she wasn’t interested AT ALL but he couldn’t just leave it. Crikey.

But yes, I’ve dealt with things like this from a young age too. I think most girls are leered at in school uniform. My science teacher used to do it to me when I was 13 years old, he was probably only about 10 years older than me but you know 13-23 is obviously more than wrong to the vast majority...

I have had women blocking men on a number of occasions they have seen how uncomfortable I am especially when very young.

On the odd occasion a man twice then they used this opportunity to try it on themselves (both in bars)

Men are not speaking out enough let’s not pretend they are

Men are not speaking out enough let’s not pretend they are

Damn right @OhWhyNot
This excellent article by Hanna Brooks Olsen is compelling & enraging all at the same time. It explains in minute detail how even the 'good guys Just.Don't.Fucking.Get.It.

everydayfeminism.com/2016/06/why-smile-sexual-harassment/

@ChargingBuck that’s a very well written article and should be read by everyone. Thanks for sharing,

Happy to @thefourgp, impressive wasn't it :)

Aged 9, walking the dog alone (normal in the 70s), a bloke approached me and picked me up, trying to force his fingers into my vagina through my knickers and asked if I’d been licked out yet. I was horrified, understanding sort of what he meant.

In my early 20s, I spent time at a university abroad. First night out, me and other English students were in a bar and we were all black and blue within minutes from having our bums pinched. We decided to turn the tables (measures were definitely bigger than we were used to, no excuse, really, but we were fed up). The absolute outrage from the men was astounding.

Yep, CONSTANTLY when young. And often like this guy - she clearly wasn't interested in his 'you're so beautiful' advances so he starts banging on about random projects etc. as another means of reeling her in. So much time wasted on this endless shit it makes me angry watching it even now.

Shizzlestix that is horrific I hope you told someone and was supported. I don’t think I would have had the language to have been able to tell anyone at that age.

ChargingBuck thank you that was a very interesting article. I am so sick of having to defend my actions to men when I talk about sexual assault and harassment. It seems so many think unless extreme violence is used to over power us we have control of the situation. Every time I am asked why didn’t you tell him to stop, tell him to fuck off, scream and so on. One becuase I have been shamed and I’m scared. A man who is willing to scare me, to sexually assault me is also willing to physically attack me I don’t thing being in public holds them back why should I think that so I protect myself the best I know how and that is trying to avoid their anger because then it will be worse

How many times do we read that when women have been reaped they just pray they are not going to be killed. We go into survival mode we know we are not as physically strong we know that within a second things can escalate and all we want to do is escape as safely as possible

@Shizzlestix

Aged 9, walking the dog alone (normal in the 70s), a bloke approached me and picked me up, trying to force his fingers into my vagina through my knickers and asked if I’d been licked out yet. I was horrified, understanding sort of what he meant.

In my early 20s, I spent time at a university abroad. First night out, me and other English students were in a bar and we were all black and blue within minutes from having our bums pinched. We decided to turn the tables (measures were definitely bigger than we were used to, no excuse, really, but we were fed up). The absolute outrage from the men was astounding.

And yet if a gay man touches a straight man, violence and aggression is seen as 'to be expected '

That's it @OhWhyNot - once a perp has broken the social contract, who knows (er ... women) what he'll do next?
Most men just see this is "well tell him to stop breaking the social contract!" or "Just ignore him". Because that's what they "would" (read - think they would) do.

Wish I could remember the source, but I read a fascinating essay by a man travelling by train. He noticed a woman, interpreted her earplugs, book, & body language as indicating 'do not disturb' ... but Random Man Two approached her anyway.
RM2 did the usual. Noting overtly hostile, nothing ostensibly rule-breaking - but when she finally felt obliged to respond with the barest minimum sentences, continues boundary-pushing.

The author decided to risk a social experiment.
He moved to sit directly behind RM2.
Said hello, asked his name, where was he going, where did he get his jacket etc.
RM2 was disinterested, then irritated, & then came to the conclusion that obviously, the author's game was cock-based.
RM2 said something along the lines of "I'm not gay, leave me alone"
Author cheerily said something like "oh that's not a problem" & continued to intrude.
RM2 objected again.
Author replied "oh I thought we were all just having a chat"
RM2 got angry.
Author asked him why.
RM2 told Author that he wasn't interested in talking to him, why was he in his space, & he'd better fuck right off before he got punched.
Author replied - but I thought that was your kink! Because I've watched you talking at this woman who clearly doesn't want to be harassed & you ignored her obvious signals to piss off, so I reckoned you might enjoy it, so I did it to you.

All paraphrased & clumsily recreated, but the fear was palpable in the article. Brave author (or well intentioned & smartly inventive, who cares by the time you realise its a parable).
Nobody got punched, & woman left the carriage before RM2.

It's the double standard & purblind fucking ignorance that stick in my craw. Oh, & the total lack or respect, refusal to perceive women's equal ownership pf public spaces, continued on page 94 ...

I am also sick of this, and worried for my daughters.
When I think about it, this has happened constantly- one of my first kisses was being trapped in a utility room at a house party and it was easier to kiss than to avoid more..similar with my first time having sex, but having been brought to a strangers house by an older boy.
Probably the worst example is being told at a work, as a secondary teacher, “looking sexy today, miss” by a 16 yo boy and after reporting it, having nothing else done. My reprimand was the only consequence he faced. This was a few years ago, but I think it demonstrates how in built this sense of superiority is, at such a young age.
I’ve even been approached about appearing in porn in the middle of the street with him following me to pass over his number. And so many other examples, which I haven’t thought of too often, but now I do, it’s infuriating. I accepted it as normal, much like this girl.