LGBTQ talk in schools

[JaggedStone]

Named changed for this as could be outing.
We are very open with our children and explain life to them in ways they can understand and to ensure they are respectful of everyone and are always open and honest with us.
A LOT of parents have kicked up a fuss about the fact that teachers have spoken to the children today about LGBTQ but it is government mandated as compulsory so essentially the parents can not opt out of it unless they are planning to home school.
Some of the views seem quite hypocritical and some are saying they shouldn’t have these kind of talks yet.
AIBU to think that they are being unreasonable?

@nolongersurprised

Peter Tatchell is going into secondary schools to deliver sessions too

That guy who talked about 9 year olds getting “great pleasure” from sex with adults. Going into schools??
Talk about “in plain sight”.

Any posters and parents who feel totally laid back about the "Q" part of these teachings, I'd urge you to invest 10 minutes of your time to look into this chap and see what he would like to see a) happening in schools, and b) regards consent. Not everyone who would like to influence - and it's feasible he could have lots of this - what our kids hear has their best interests at heart.

I have a 17yo. I can tell you now that this stuff is insidious.

She has told me more than once that it’s social suicide to be straight, or lesbian. She identifies as a non binary pansexual, along with all her peers. They are not ALLOWED (socially) to be either gay or straight. This is homophobia. It is actual lesbian erasure. There are no more teenage lesbians in her social set.

This is not faux concern.

I don't think no one on MN cares about lesbophobia.

I do think that the vast majority of the pearl-clutchers on threads like this, who post their 'won't anyone think of the lesbians' comments, are not being particularly honest about their actual motivations.

And their is that prejudice again.

It's very normal. I also manage to teach them without interrogating them about what genitalia they prefer, funnily enough.

And why would you need to know their sexual orientation?

You have your own personal agenda here, while criticizing and demonising other posters.

It all depends if the school is following the latest government guidelines. There are useful guides to these on Safe Schools Alliance and Transgender Trend.

[quote narcdad]@redbigbananafeet but it's not that simple is it? Which is why I asked for content on exactly what the school would be delivering, they never emailed me back.

And yes, I do feel for my 8yo that it is too young for these types of talks. [/quote]
That's insane. Do you think learning that mixed sex couples exist will turn them gay? What about mixed sexed parents in their classes?

I've taught many lesbian students, a few trans students, and lots who were still making up their minds

Yet, as I’m sure you’re aware, the rates of girls wanting to identify as male have exploded recently, with a 4000% increase in girls presenting to gender clinics.

A number of the girls I see through work who want to identify as male are same sex attracted (or have ASD or have suffered abuse). Young lesbians are vulnerable to this, it’s a bit odd to come to a parenting board and claim that MN doesn’t really care about lesbians.

To be fair, I don’t waste any sleep over happily married, middle aged women in same sex relationships but girls are especially vulnerable now. Seemingly, everything is very open and progressive, but the numbers of girls wanting to transition tells another story.

Any posters and parents who feel totally laid back about the "Q" part of these teachings, I'd urge you to invest 10 minutes of your time to look into this chap and see what he would like to see a) happening in schools, and b) regards consent. Not everyone who would like to influence - and it's feasible he could have lots of this - what our kids hear has their best interests at heart

The fawning over Tatchell turns my stomach. The future will not look kindly on those who ignored all the red flags waving about this man.

@LondonQueen I did, I sent an email on the back of one that the school sent out, to which I got no reply, just a leaflet attached stating it was now part of the curriculum, with very basic info. They also only gave 2 days notice so very little time for me to investigate.

I am still not sure exactly what they cover but will make sure I do before my youngest has the lesson.

@Whatwouldscullydo

“Some women love exclusively women and that includes males who say they’re women. These males or females are called lesbians.”

The Q (Queer) part is problematic too. Not only was queer an insult hurled at gay men and lesbians, its now used to make straight people sound more interesting.

You could have an lgbt club at school full of heterosexual couples. It dilutes the support for everyone else.

The son of my best friend is doing A Levels and school have a gay club. DC didn't realise one lunchtime he was eating his lunch and studying in their allocated room and was instructed to leave as he wasn't gay. Young guy was happy to move on so they could have their space but jokingly asked on the way "How on earth do you know I'm not?". He was told they know this because he hasn't come out, has had girlfriends in the past and doesn't "act gay". That he should stop being so homophobic.

I think his gast was flabbered to say the least

If this sort of talk turns children gay, why doesn’t normal heterosexual talk turn gay children straight?

It’s not about turning children gay.

But turning them ‘trans’ is an actual real concern. Breast binding, internet sourced hormones, god forbid surgery. Kids are suggestible. Pretending this stuff isn’t ‘teachable’ is naive.

@GaiusHelenMohiam

The pendulum has swung from section 28 through ‘it’s ok to be gay’ and now we’re at full on cloud cuckoo ‘humans can change sex through magic words of affirmation’.

I live in hope that it swings back to the middle before we get to full on queer theory ‘kids can consent’.

And it's worth remembering that gay men and lesbians -

• Didn't demand that language (woman) change to include them,
• Didn't demand that chosen pronouns must be used and to not do so could potentially be a disciplinary offence in your workplace,
• Didn't demand access to women's safe spaces
• Didn't demand access to women and girls shortlists or sorts place
• Didn't advocate and cheerlead young people into medical procedures and interventions which could be harmful.

So aside from that fact that a sexual orientation is NOTHING to do with a gender identity, the rights that gay men and lesbians have fought for impact IN NO WAY on another human being.

To conflate the two is bollocks. See this also for the "Racist" argument that's often thrown in.

Anyway, OP, have you managed to establish exactly what was being discussed?

Yes but I also think it’s important to educate children on being gay.

So that shy awkward 11 year old girl can be attracted to other girls and it doesn’t mean she’s a boy really and therefore needs to look at breast binding. It means she’s perfectly normal, and yes it’s ok to be gay

@redbigbananafeet insane? No, wanting to know the content of something is not the same as me thinking that by my 8yo knowing about same sex relationships makes them gay, ffs.

Also, I am not comfortable with MY 8yo learning about transgender, far too young imo, because the school didn't give any further specific details about this (as well as the rest of the content) I took my child out of school.

Wow. Another mumsnet thread littered with blatant homophobia. Absolutely disgusting, not to mention depressing.

As for the poster who kept their dc at home because they have ASD and would find it too confusing WTF? As someone who is bisexual, married to a woman and who also has a child with ASD, your ignorance is shocking beyond belief.

Age appropriate teaching is a real thing and I believe in it, but simply talking about same sex attraction and love is appropriate at ANY age and if you disagree, well...I think that says a lot about you.

Children do not need to be shielded from people like us. We are part of the world. That isn't going to change.

@Soubriquet

Yes but I also think it’s important to educate children on being gay.

So that shy awkward 11 year old girl can be attracted to other girls and it doesn’t mean she’s a boy really and therefore needs to look at breast binding. It means she’s perfectly normal, and yes it’s ok to be gay

But therein lies the problem. If you teach trans ideology at the same time as this - which I 100% agree with - girls are also taught that some people are not comfortable in their bodies and that makes them trans.

Even if, and it’s a big if, you’re absolutely clear that these two ideas are separate, the latter is the social contagion at the moment, the cool idea, the more appealing idea for a variety of reasons, the more popular idea on social media.

@Soubriquet

Yes but I also think it’s important to educate children on being gay.

So that shy awkward 11 year old girl can be attracted to other girls and it doesn’t mean she’s a boy really and therefore needs to look at breast binding. It means she’s perfectly normal, and yes it’s ok to be gay

I don't think anyone is disputing that. I've seen one post from the parent of an autistic child. It's common practice to adapt lessons to make them more accessible for autism so I can't see any issue in a parent thinking it might be too advanced or complicated. It's common practice to have children absent from sex education for a number of reasons: history of sexual abuse, difficulty in accessing information in a whole class environment etc. It's also reassuring to let parents know the contents. A lot of parents don't want children taught sex education because they have misconceptions about what is taught. Most are happy for children to be taught anatomy and practical things like periods, wet dreams.

I'd be fine with my DS learning about LGB - but NOT about the T or the Q. He's too young (4.5) - and children are very suggestible.

As for Peter Tatchell going into schools - this is a man who advocates for adults being able to legally have sex with pre-pubescent children! . Who the fuck thought it was appropriate for him to even be near a child, let alone allowed to talk to whole classes of children?!

So that shy awkward 11 year old girl can be attracted to other girls and it doesn’t mean she’s a boy really and therefore needs to look at breast binding. It means she’s perfectly normal, and yes it’s ok to be gay

Well this is the thing isn't it.

How do we simultaneously teach girls its ok to be gay and that girls can have a male body.

These two things can not co exist

@BowlofRamen

Wow. Another mumsnet thread littered with blatant homophobia. Absolutely disgusting, not to mention depressing.

As for the poster who kept their dc at home because they have ASD and would find it too confusing WTF? As someone who is bisexual, married to a woman and who also has a child with ASD, your ignorance is shocking beyond belief.

Age appropriate teaching is a real thing and I believe in it, but simply talking about same sex attraction and love is appropriate at ANY age and if you disagree, well...I think that says a lot about you.

Children do not need to be shielded from people like us. We are part of the world. That isn't going to change.

Well you're entitled to have your opinion and that's completely fine. However, I have mine and will do as I see fit for my child.

As I'm sure you are aware ASD is a spectrum and not all ASD children are the same, MY dd would find it confusing and being her mother and all, I made the call to keep her off school.

I've taught many lesbian students, a few trans students, and lots who were still making up their minds. It's very normal.

Despite the posters now claiming this thread is littered with blatant homophobia, I have seen only a few instances of this.

It IS normal for people to have different sexual orientations. Completely normal. It is also very normal for young people to still be making up their minds.

In regard to trans students, are you teaching anything where this would even be a problem? No? So, again, it is normal and a professional adult educator would treat them as any other student.

I also manage to teach them without interrogating them about what genitalia they prefer, funnily enough.

And I ask this again. What are you 'teaching' them that would ever entail such a conversation.

This is straight out of an activist playbook on how to 'call out' hate when in fact, it is YOU who is showing some pretty prejudiced views about posters. Not about what has been taught. But YOU are attacking posters on this thread.

There is a term for making a big deal out of something to distract from the topic of discussion. Sparple. That is what referring to the fact that you teach adults without knowing what their 'genital preference' is.

I would be hugely concerned if I was a student of 18-21 and a teacher was ever interested in this. It has absolutely no relevance to the teaching of those under the age of 18.

Yes, or that stereotypes are bad but some people's whole existence depends on them being reinforced.

Schools should be teaching children that clothes are for everyone and that adults can have lots of different relationships with other adults. That families can all look different. That girls ovulate, have periods and can get pregnant. That boys have xyz puberty changes and girls ABC. That sex should be in the context of a loving relationship. What the law says about sex and age. How and why to have safe sex.

Thankfully, all the above is what's in the actual curriculum. It's schools doing their own stonewall approved curriculum that's the issue.

And parents should have consent about what is taught, to request or pull out. That's there too.

School needs to get considerate of parents views. If some feel this information would be too much for their primary school children then they should learn about it at a later date.

@FairyLightQueen if someone feels their child is too young,
I don’t think anyone has the right to tell them their wrong. Your question regarding if you and your DW shouldn’t tell your young children about your same sex relationship is very silly. Your children grew up with your family setting whereas many have not.
So if they don’t feel their children should know till their teens then so be it.

Personally I think 8/9 is a good age to learn.

@narcdad there is nothing wrong with what you’re doing in my opinion.

Yes, I'm very aware @narcdad that it is a spectrum. An incredibly varied spectrum, but didn't you say you'd keep off your other dc?....