LGBTQ talk in schools

[JaggedStone]

Named changed for this as could be outing.
We are very open with our children and explain life to them in ways they can understand and to ensure they are respectful of everyone and are always open and honest with us.
A LOT of parents have kicked up a fuss about the fact that teachers have spoken to the children today about LGBTQ but it is government mandated as compulsory so essentially the parents can not opt out of it unless they are planning to home school.
Some of the views seem quite hypocritical and some are saying they shouldn’t have these kind of talks yet.
AIBU to think that they are being unreasonable?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I think maybe GC feminists do

Interestingly, I don't know that GC feminists are any better at this than anyone else. I remember at Radfem 2012 there was a minor controversy amongst a group of women who believed they'd spotted a transwoman. She was a butch lesbian. I've also got a friend who's a transwoman, who's more than once had GC feminists try to start a discussion with her about transwomen, without realising she is one.

kids will be just fine.
Thanks to Keira Bell

The we can always tell crap always makes me laugh.
I've been told I look like a man before when out.
Which is absolutely baffling as there's nothing manly about me
Can only presume its because I never wear make up and I was in DH's hoody.
Anyway point is people go on what you're wearing, or your make up, or whether your features are suitably feminine enough
It boils down to what a woman '' should '' look like.

I know 'MIL' and 'DD' get used in a few other contexts

I have seen these commonly used on other forums. MN didn't invent them and they are not unique to MN.

@Helleofabore

I know 'MIL' and 'DD' get used in a few other contexts

I have seen these commonly used on other forums. MN didn't invent them and they are not unique to MN.

They're very typical of MN, though, which is my point - that in combination with 'AIBU' and 'pearl-clutching' and the focus on GCSE grades would certainly make me think 'hmm ...'.

@EeeICouldRipATissue - YY, I well believe that.

How do you know you're not just missing the ones who do look like women?

Because I've seen thousands of these people in photos/TV/IRL and none of them do 🤷‍♀️ they mostly have a certain uncanny valley look which makes them stand out, so it's vanishingly unlikely IMO but obviously not something I can actually prove without some sort of controlled experiment.

DP doesn't have my skillz. I don't think men notice it so much.

Yes I acknowledge there are a tiny minority of both sexes who can convincingly pass as the opposite sex, but other people's anecdata doesn't trump my own.

Or, we can stop being so bloody wound up about it and remember actually it doesn’t really matter in the scheme of things and our kids will be just fine.

actually, no.

As I said up thread, in a group of 7 friends, 5 are trans. These are 14/15 yr old females. And each and every one of those 5 have significantly poor mental health. And this has not improved over the past year.

It DOES matter in the scheme of things. And some kids will be just fine. Others will need a great deal of support, which they are not getting enough of. Because in some cases, the medical professionals are not treating the mental health issues but are 'affirming only'.

And the schools need to ensure that they are providing balanced resources and toolkits.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Yes I acknowledge there are a tiny minority of both sexes who can convincingly pass as the opposite sex, but other people's anecdata doesn't trump my own.

@Helleofabore

Sarah said something like ‘you are not doing the awareness work you think youre doing’

And The other poster said ‘and you are (doing the awareness work)?’

yes, I mistook Sarah's you as being a question aimed at me, not the general 'you' of posters who would be arguing similar things that I have been arguing.

See @EeeICouldRipATissue your question has been answered.

I see I was correct in saying that you wouldn't even have the basic level of respect to respond, to even engage about what you mean when you talk about the people affected.

@EeeICouldRipATissue

The we can always tell crap always makes me laugh. I've been told I look like a man before when out. Which is absolutely baffling as there's nothing manly about me Can only presume its because I never wear make up and I was in DH's hoody. Anyway point is people go on what you're wearing, or your make up, or whether your features are suitably feminine enough It boils down to what a woman '' should '' look like.

What do you think a man is, then? You've argued before that it's a feeling. Now you are saying it's what someone looks like.

What is it? What is a man?

@EeeICouldRipATissue

The we can always tell crap always makes me laugh. I've been told I look like a man before when out. Which is absolutely baffling as there's nothing manly about me Can only presume its because I never wear make up and I was in DH's hoody. Anyway point is people go on what you're wearing, or your make up, or whether your features are suitably feminine enough It boils down to what a woman '' should '' look like.

Not really. Studies have shown that humans can tell the sex of a person based solely on points of light showing our joints during walking. Males and females have quite significantly different natural gaits. We are a sexually dimorphic species and have developed a very strong ability to detect the sex of other humans. And yes, women tend to be better than men at it, because we have to be for our safety. There is no one single tell. There are multiple tells, through sight, sound and even smell. But it's not just simply sight, for example, we might not be able to see it when someone holds still or is in a photo. But once they start moving, there are so many ways that we can tell. Even if you don't consciously know the person is trans, you will be aware of an incongruity, of something about that person being 'off.' Your subconscious will pick up un the differences.

In fact, humans are so sexually dimorphic that even some monomorphic animals can tell the difference between men and women. Transpeople, don't 'pass.'

@SarahAndQuack

I will say -and then I will shut up because I should get DD to bed - the issue I have found young lesbians, and indeed not so young lesbians, bothered about is the tendency to presume if you're a bit butch you're probably trans and in denial, or you must want to be trans. I suspect it's the 2022 version of accusing lesbians of wanting to be men.

hang on, but when others on MN have said this exact thing, they're pretending? Loads of people have brought this up.

Males and females have quite significantly different natural gaits. We are a sexually dimorphic species and have developed a very strong ability to detect the sex of other humans
Maybe I was just walking like a man that day as well then whatever that means

I was reading a Reddit thread recently (yes, I know) where there was a discussion about adult lesbians in marry US, where hormones are easier to come by, microdosing on testosterone. Not because they were trans, but more “non binary trans masc” and wanting to feel more like their authentic selves.

Women who take testosterone look like men to me, although their voices are distinctive. Apparently that Donald Duck voice happens when testosterone thickens the cartilage of the voice box but there’s not the concomitant lengthening of the structures that normally happens then growth hormone and testosterone work together, as in male puberty.

DH reckons he can tell though.

*the US, not marry

I don’t want to marry an American lesbian

definitely should not be teaching this in primary school. They're there to learn how to read/write do numeracy, basic science etc. Not to learn who loves who and relationships. I'd have an issue with even heterosexual relationships being taught at that age. Let them be kids. Why do 5-8 year olds need to know about ANY type of relationships???

I know lots of trans people pass well enough.
I think what someone looks like is irrelevant. It shouldn't be any basis for how 'trans' anyone is. Gender is an internal feeling, isn't it? It doesn't need to be expressed in any set way.

Be as masculine or feminine as you like! Being male or female has very little to do with that.

@EeeICouldRipATissue

Males and females have quite significantly different natural gaits. We are a sexually dimorphic species and have developed a very strong ability to detect the sex of other humans Maybe I was just walking like a man that day as well then whatever that means

Seems legit. My DP must walk like a man too.

@Pinkrose1111

definitely should not be teaching this in primary school. They're there to learn how to read/write do numeracy, basic science etc. Not to learn who loves who and relationships. I'd have an issue with even heterosexual relationships being taught at that age. Let them be kids. Why do 5-8 year olds need to know about ANY type of relationships???

Primary is up to 11. Do you think they've not come across any people in a relationship before? Shouldn't say that their parents love each other, for example? What an odd attitude.

It's usually recommended that for kids to happily be kids, they have some idea of what love is.

hang on, but when others on MN have said this exact thing, they're pretending? Loads of people have brought this up.

Pretending what?

Pretending that they think it's an issue (usually re their kids) and actually they don't care. What you've been arguing all day.

@Pinkrose1111

definitely should not be teaching this in primary school. They're there to learn how to read/write do numeracy, basic science etc. Not to learn who loves who and relationships. I'd have an issue with even heterosexual relationships being taught at that age. Let them be kids. Why do 5-8 year olds need to know about ANY type of relationships???

They get taught about different types of families at aged 5 and upwards, not about the full details of adult relationships. Are you seriously worried about children being told, correctly, that families come in lots of different types and all are equally valid? Even in the most homogenous populations, some children will be living in one parent households, or across two households with step parents, or with another relative. There might not be anyone with two parents of the same sex, but it's obvious that plenty of children are in the UK.

I'd have an issue with even heterosexual relationships being taught at that age. Let them be kids. Why do 5-8 year olds need to know about ANY type of relationships???
Thing is though but 5 to 8 year olds DO know about relationships in the sense that they have a mum and a dad, and if you are a boy, you can have a girlfriend, and if you're a girl you can have a boyfriend.
Why can they not know that sometimes people can have 2 mums, or 2 Dad's?
Or that it's OK to like the same sex?
All age appropriate of course.
Normalising same sex relationships doesnt mean they'll automatically catch the gay or mean you're telling them all about shagging

@SarahAndQuack

hang on, but when others on MN have said this exact thing, they're pretending? Loads of people have brought this up.

Pretending what?

That's nonsense. Not one person has said they believe their lesbian daughters are trans.