LGBTQ talk in schools

[JaggedStone]

Named changed for this as could be outing.
We are very open with our children and explain life to them in ways they can understand and to ensure they are respectful of everyone and are always open and honest with us.
A LOT of parents have kicked up a fuss about the fact that teachers have spoken to the children today about LGBTQ but it is government mandated as compulsory so essentially the parents can not opt out of it unless they are planning to home school.
Some of the views seem quite hypocritical and some are saying they shouldn’t have these kind of talks yet.
AIBU to think that they are being unreasonable?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

am aware there is what I called a 'lunatic fringe' earlier, of trans activists who have said some pretty eye-watering things about the 'cotton ceiling'.

They're all over Twitter, I think if you spend a lot of time on there and other social media sites it would feel like a pretty hostile experience, and that's what my lesbian friends tell me (although they are GC feminists so I don't claim that they are a representative sample). It's all part of the wider misogyny which is pretty intense and all encompassing on social media. And that I do feel I can comment on, and I know a lot of women downplay and minimise misogyny and sexism in general.

I really don't think they are 'all over Twitter'. I've never seen a cotton ceiling post come up in the sidebar of things that are being discussed a lot. And I spend masses of time on twitter.

It's not that I don't believe you go on there and see them - I know some people who really make it their business to retweet this stuff as a form of awareness-raising. But, is it actually representative?

I don't find it so.

And the only way we'd know how representative it is, would be to survey a load of lesbians.

@EeeICouldRipATissue

think you totally misunderstood "and you are?" in the post you quoted, btw So what did and you are mean then if they weren't actually asking who they were?

Sarah said something like ‘you are not doing the awareness work you think youre doing’

And The other poster said ‘and you are (doing the awareness work)?’

There are a generation of kids who wholeheartedly believe you have to be pansexual or you’re transphobic.

I’ve had many many heated discussions with my teenagers about this.

This isn’t a niche issue. My daughter has screamed at me that some lesbians have penises and I’m a bigot for saying otherwise. DS came afoul of DH when he told him he’d be transphobic for not wanting to sleep with a TW based on the fact they were trans.

It’s is a movement that is actually aiming to erase peoples sexuality. Any LGB people buying into this shit are complicit in rolling back everything that was fought for. If we can’t name sex we can’t name sexuality.

And the only way we'd know how representative it is, would be to survey a load of lesbians.

I think this has been advocated for. I agree. However, who would do the survey? It would have to be done via interview I feel to cut through to get to the true. Then there is the issue with how to word it so it was clear yet not deemed hateful.

I am sure you can see the issue with it.

Sarah said something like ‘you are not doing the awareness work you think youre doing’

And The other poster said ‘and you are (doing the awareness work)?’

yes, I mistook Sarah's you as being a question aimed at me, not the general 'you' of posters who would be arguing similar things that I have been arguing.

@Helleofabore

And the only way we'd know how representative it is, would be to survey a load of lesbians.

I think this has been advocated for. I agree. However, who would do the survey? It would have to be done via interview I feel to cut through to get to the true. Then there is the issue with how to word it so it was clear yet not deemed hateful.

I am sure you can see the issue with it.

I know someone who applied for funding to do it, and didn't get it. She did a smaller survey off her own back, which didn't come back suggesting it was particularly a thing, but then, obviously, it's really hard to tell much from small surveys (and you'll have issues of bias that the people who'll respond will be the author's social network, who may have quite uniform views on the subject).

I agree, it'd be difficult in lots of ways.

And I think it is very important Sarah that those very young lesbians are included in any survey. But how do you reach them, and how do you cut through the socialisation that they are getting from their friends.

I know at least one of those lesbians has slept with their transgirlfriend at 14 years old while drunk.

I really don't think they are 'all over Twitter'. I've never seen a cotton ceiling post come up in the sidebar of things that are being discussed a lot. And I spend masses of time on twitter.

We all have our filter bubble based on what the algorithms think we want to read about. You, me, everyone. It depends on who you follow.

I spend a lot of time on other social media sites too and because I am aware of this issue I see it more. As you said, we would need a huge impartial survey, and you're generally going to think your impression is more accurate and so do others think that about theirs.

For me, they are all over Twitter.

@Helleofabore

And I think it is very important Sarah that those very young lesbians are included in any survey. But how do you reach them, and how do you cut through the socialisation that they are getting from their friends.

I know at least one of those lesbians has slept with their transgirlfriend at 14 years old while drunk.

We ... elll ... but you're coming at this from the presumption that they are being socialised in a certain way, aren't you? And that you need to 'cut through' that to get to the truth.

So you would end up writing bias into your survey.

That is what I mean by echo chamber. You're setting out to design a survey so that it confirms what you believe to be true.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I really don't think they are 'all over Twitter'. I've never seen a cotton ceiling post come up in the sidebar of things that are being discussed a lot. And I spend masses of time on twitter.

We all have our filter bubble based on what the algorithms think we want to read about. You, me, everyone. It depends on who you follow.

I spend a lot of time on other social media sites too and because I am aware of this issue I see it more. As you said, we would need a huge impartial survey, and you're generally going to think your impression is more accurate and so do others think that about theirs.

For me, they are all over Twitter.

I know we all have our filter bubble - that's where we came into this discussion!

the wider population don't use the same sets of phrases/the same structure of argument

But they do if they have seen even an article about it, watched a news interview, or read a book. As people get to know more, they take on the terms. I have even had a male friend who started discussing with me, using the same terms from reading Douglas Murray's book.

It's important to bear that in mind at all times before you make sweeping statements based on your own experience. For everyone.

Let's know how we can tell if pressure on lesbians is an issue - the fact is that no LGBT organisation will come out and say it's ok to be exclusively same sex attracted without qualifying it. "Of course anyone has the right to say no to anyone for whatever reason". But they won't come out and say that it's ok to be a female person attracted only to other female people.

Even TRAs have tentatively tried to say that some people need a penis or vagina or whatever and they get piled on by the younger activists who have never questioned the homophobia.

People want their choices to be respected but only when it suits them. Why the bashing on religious people which btw I am not?

That is what I mean by echo chamber. You're setting out to design a survey so that it confirms what you believe to be true.

No, I was very clear that the questions asked needed to be able to evaluated as to whether they are answering a 'canned' answer or something they actually believe. Meaning, the questions would have to be carefully framed and repeated in certain ways.

At least, in my experience designing marketing research quant studies, that is what I would do.

We ... elll ... but you're coming at this from the presumption that they are being socialised in a certain way, aren't you?

So, you are saying that these 7 girls all believe fully that lesbians should be accepting of penises? I damn well know that one of those lesbians was just going along with it as we have discussed it. She absolutely would not admit it to the others.

There's a sense among many young people that being essentially bisexual is the only morally justifiable position.

I damn well know that one of those lesbians was just going along with it as we have discussed it. She absolutely would not admit it to the others.

And that is where we have a problem, isn't it.

The question I ask Eresh is where are the support groups who are telling those males to stop and that it is totally unacceptable to abuse lesbians not accepting of them as sex partners. Plenty of opportunities, yet I have never seen stonewall make a statement. (if I have missed the statement and someone has it, please do post it)

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Let's know how we can tell if pressure on lesbians is an issue - the fact is that no LGBT organisation will come out and say it's ok to be exclusively same sex attracted without qualifying it. "Of course anyone has the right to say no to anyone for whatever reason". But they won't come out and say that it's ok to be a female person attracted only to other female people.

Even TRAs have tentatively tried to say that some people need a penis or vagina or whatever and they get piled on by the younger activists who have never questioned the homophobia.

But the thing here is, I know plenty of people who would just laugh and wonder why on earth you'd care? I mean serious, thoughtful people. Who would simply be bemused and say 'but surely if you don't enjoy sex with someone with a penis you'll just, erm, not have sex with them eh?' In much the same way that you might hear someone say 'oh, I can't bloody stand oral' and someone else says 'no, I never come from missionary'.

My DP, who's not on MN but whom I chat to about this stuff, was genuinely a bit bemused why anyone would care if a transwoman calls herself a lesbian - she really didn't understand why it would be an issue. And yet, she wouldn't want sex with someone with a penis.

It's not automatically an issue for a lot of people, and it could well be the organisations you're thinking of also don't think it's an issue.

it could well be the organisations you're thinking of also don't think it's an issue.

Stonewall have been told it is an issue. By ex-members. They have been ignored.

They have been asked, Ruth Hunt was asked, Nancy has been asked, other LGBT rights groups have been asked.

If anyone here thinks there has been a clear unequivocal statement that being exclusively gay or lesbian is acceptable please post it here.

@Helleofabore

That is what I mean by echo chamber. You're setting out to design a survey so that it confirms what you believe to be true.

No, I was very clear that the questions asked needed to be able to evaluated as to whether they are answering a 'canned' answer or something they actually believe. Meaning, the questions would have to be carefully framed and repeated in certain ways.

At least, in my experience designing marketing research quant studies, that is what I would do.

We ... elll ... but you're coming at this from the presumption that they are being socialised in a certain way, aren't you?

So, you are saying that these 7 girls all believe fully that lesbians should be accepting of penises? I damn well know that one of those lesbians was just going along with it as we have discussed it. She absolutely would not admit it to the others.

I agree questions would need to be evaluated - what I had an issue with was the way you tied this to a single anecdote as if that were representative.

I have no idea what those 7 girls believe. But why are you shocked that some of them might think that? You might find the belief unpalatable, or even upsetting, but it might still be their belief.

We all have socialised beliefs - how would you decide which socialisation to try to discount, and which not?

But the thing here is, I know plenty of people who would just laugh and wonder why on earth you'd care? I mean serious, thoughtful people. Who would simply be bemused and say 'but surely if you don't enjoy sex with someone with a penis you'll just, erm, not have sex with them eh?' In much the same way that you might hear someone say 'oh, I can't bloody stand oral' and someone else says 'no, I never come from missionary'.

Yes, because when talking about homophobia it's an awkward question that answering it (at least in public or in front of people you know) might either get you shit or sound homophobic. People often either aren't that interested or they have reasons to be careful what they say.

@Helleofabore

it could well be the organisations you're thinking of also don't think it's an issue.

Stonewall have been told it is an issue. By ex-members. They have been ignored.

Yes, but even having been told, they might still not think it's an issue. People don't automatically agree with you just because you tell them things.

It’s a problem when teenage girls are indoctrinated to believe they CAN’T say no to a male ‘lesbian’ without being shunned and ostracised. It’s happening.

It’s easy to brush off as a forty something lesbian who isn’t dating, I suppose, as it doesn’t affect you.