LGBTQ talk in schools

[JaggedStone]

Named changed for this as could be outing.
We are very open with our children and explain life to them in ways they can understand and to ensure they are respectful of everyone and are always open and honest with us.
A LOT of parents have kicked up a fuss about the fact that teachers have spoken to the children today about LGBTQ but it is government mandated as compulsory so essentially the parents can not opt out of it unless they are planning to home school.
Some of the views seem quite hypocritical and some are saying they shouldn’t have these kind of talks yet.
AIBU to think that they are being unreasonable?

@Helleofabore

Doing wonderful awareness-raising' work? I take it you mean on this thread?

If you did not mean on this thread, I do apologise and in turn ask what you mean?

I really meant across MN.

My sense is that there are posters on MN who think that they are raising awareness, helping people reach 'peak trans'. But I think that the trans discourse on MN has put off far more people than it's attracted, judging by comments elsewhere and from posters who quietly drifted away from FWR or from MN.

Are we still going on about this? Scolding women for not reading or replying to threads you deem we should have read and replied to?? And being blamed for other people's lesbophobkc responses? Hmm.

@UltraVividLament

Are we still going on about this? Scolding women for not reading or replying to threads you deem we should have read and replied to?? And being blamed for other people's lesbophobkc responses? Hmm.

I'm not scolding anyone for not reading anything. Nor am I blaming posters on here for other people's lesbophobic comments, as is pretty obvious from the post where I agreed FWR would likely be more supportive to lesbians.

I am pointing out that the sudden 'defence' of lesbians is a very particular MN phenomenon that only attaches to trans threads. It's not in evidence generally across the site. This makes it pretty obvious that defending lesbians isn't the primary aim of posters, and it's a smoke screen for having a go at trans women.

Thank you for clarifying Sarahandquack. And sorry, I did think it was a dig at me. Apologies.

You know, there are so many people with differing opinions posting in FWR. That is why people using the term 'echo chamber' is ludicrous. Yes, there will be people who aim to raise awareness in such a way.

There are also people there who are actively involved in campaigning to get clear guidance on the laws, to make sure all female interests are fully considered and any negative impacts are mitigated. Many feminists have been BANNED from MN.

MN is nowhere near an echo chamber. And frankly, there are many websites that cultivate a 'safe environment' full of carefully regurgitated information so people who cannot discuss the issues from a reasoned perspective have a 'safe' dissemination. Not balanced, not necessarily even realistic, but safe.

And a word on 'comments elsewhere', twitter and other social media platforms are horrendous for taking posts (or posting them themselves and quickly screenshotting them) and posting 'those hateful MNers'. If you are someone who doesn't go directly to the original source to check the information and the validity of the claims, yes, you will believe them.

There are just as many people visiting and finding useful resources within the threads, reading along and making up their own minds. Which is actually what everyone who is interested should be doing. Many lurkers come out occasionally to point out that they are still there and are still learning along with the rest of us.

and you are?
It's really poor form to ask who others are on here - you do realise it's perfectly OK to name change on MN and people do for several reasons, and that it's nobody's business?
Or maybe the poster has kept the same name for years and you just have never noticed (I've seen Sarah post for several years now, definitely not an unknown poster, not that would make any difference if was)

@Helleofabore

Thank you for clarifying Sarahandquack. And sorry, I did think it was a dig at me. Apologies.

You know, there are so many people with differing opinions posting in FWR. That is why people using the term 'echo chamber' is ludicrous. Yes, there will be people who aim to raise awareness in such a way.

There are also people there who are actively involved in campaigning to get clear guidance on the laws, to make sure all female interests are fully considered and any negative impacts are mitigated. Many feminists have been BANNED from MN.

MN is nowhere near an echo chamber. And frankly, there are many websites that cultivate a 'safe environment' full of carefully regurgitated information so people who cannot discuss the issues from a reasoned perspective have a 'safe' dissemination. Not balanced, not necessarily even realistic, but safe.

And a word on 'comments elsewhere', twitter and other social media platforms are horrendous for taking posts (or posting them themselves and quickly screenshotting them) and posting 'those hateful MNers'. If you are someone who doesn't go directly to the original source to check the information and the validity of the claims, yes, you will believe them.

There are just as many people visiting and finding useful resources within the threads, reading along and making up their own minds. Which is actually what everyone who is interested should be doing. Many lurkers come out occasionally to point out that they are still there and are still learning along with the rest of us.

Thanks.

Ok, I take your point, maybe I need to go back on FWR more if it's calmed down. I have somehow never managed to get banned from MN, but I know plenty of those who were.

I do think, though, that there is a distinctive MN rhetoric on trans issues, which I find very easy to recognise. I occasionally read posts on other sites and I just know the writer is a MNer because of the way she talks about trans issues. I've not been wrong yet. So I think there is an element of something like an echo chamber?

I am pointing out that the sudden 'defence' of lesbians is a very particular MN phenomenon that only attaches to trans threads.

And how many of us are mothers of young lesbians who are now realising just how much homophobia is out there so are now joining in these discussions. Brought about because of the 'trans threads'.

As I said, when you listen to a group of seven 14 year old lesbians of which 5 are trans, discussing 'how transphobic it is to say they don't do dick' and calling each other faggots, you wake up very quickly that there is a massive issue.

@EeeICouldRipATissue

You seem to have ignored my question! Did you not know the answer?

EeeICouldRipATissue

<strong>I’m totally against any teaching of the T part though</strong>
<strong>Why shouldn't they learn that trans people exist?</strong>

Go on then, EeI - how would you define what a trans person is in simple, truthful terms to a primary child who had no concept of gender?

Something about which body parts they feel they really have even if they don't?

Something about how you are a different sex if you like certain things or have a certain personality?

I know you won't answer because as much as you like to go on about how important gender is, you've never been able to say what it actually is, beyond "a feeling" that you imagine you'd feel if magic was real and you changed your body to the opposite sex.

I think you totally misunderstood "and you are?" in the post you quoted, btw.

So I think there is an element of something like an echo chamber?

Or, it is just common discussion points that the wider population are using as well.

Hence, another reason why I laugh at the sometimes very ludicrous assertions that people who believe the sex cannot change and that sometimes sex matters is a 'minority' belief. And that it is hateful. And that it is extreme.

So I think there is an element of something like an echo chamber?

If a community of activists use the same original sources and repeat the data and the findings, then I guess the opinions will sound the same. There are only so many different takes you can make of the same data. Don't you think?

@Helleofabore

I am pointing out that the sudden 'defence' of lesbians is a very particular MN phenomenon that only attaches to trans threads.

And how many of us are mothers of young lesbians who are now realising just how much homophobia is out there so are now joining in these discussions. Brought about because of the 'trans threads'.

As I said, when you listen to a group of seven 14 year old lesbians of which 5 are trans, discussing 'how transphobic it is to say they don't do dick' and calling each other faggots, you wake up very quickly that there is a massive issue.

But if that were the issue, surely there would also be passionate defences of young lesbians on threads about people's daughters coming out? And on the whole, there are not.

There would be posters seeing threads like those I linked, and rushing on to be supportive, because they would be worried about their own daughters being discriminated against.

And it's not that I'm saying there are no supportive posts on 'general' lesbian threads, but I think the concentration of posts on trans issues is pretty telling.

think you totally misunderstood "and you are?" in the post you quoted, btw
So what did and you are mean then if they weren't actually asking who they were?

@Helleofabore

So I think there is an element of something like an echo chamber?

Or, it is just common discussion points that the wider population are using as well.

Hence, another reason why I laugh at the sometimes very ludicrous assertions that people who believe the sex cannot change and that sometimes sex matters is a 'minority' belief. And that it is hateful. And that it is extreme.

No, the wider population don't use the same sets of phrases/the same structure of argument, IME. I don't think that is a surprise. I just find it frustrating that I think some people on MN think they are shifting the Overton window, and actually, they're doing something more like bricking it up.

I've got to admit I initially thought that 'and you are' post was asking me who I was! But I think it's not terrible form in a context where I've been saying I'm a long-term MN regular, as clearly my current MN name doesn't go back years and years.

Start a thread titled 'I think my DD aged 14 is gay' and I can almost promise that sooner or later, someone will tell you it might be a phase

Surely the fact that no one would suggest their 14 year old straight child might be “going through a phase” is partly what makes that homophobic. The idea that you might know you’re straight at 14, but if you’re gay then it might be a phase, heteronormative nonsense. It’s entirely possible to have a clear sense of sexuality from a young age, and it’s equally possible that it may take time for someone to have a clear sense of their sexuality.

For me it’s nothing about teaching different sexuality or family make up, it’s the overbearing focus on trans issues from a ridiculously young age, presenting making life long changes to your body as a reasonable decision for a child or young person, that’s the part I’d be removing my child from.

Maybe some people feel that the Internet is what causing many if the problems and are reluctant to turn to the Internet for help to solve them.

I just know the writer is a MNer because of the way she talks about trans issues. I've not been wrong yet. So I think there is an element of something like an echo chamber?

In what sense do you perceive that a random poster is a mumsnetter? As to me the tone on FWR on trans issues is very similar in other parts of the internet that are 30s/40s/50s female oriented such as GC Facebook groups, Twitter etc. Do you know what demographic the posters are from? How do you know you guessed correctly, did they confirm they post on MN/read MN? I'm not saying you don't btw, I'm fairly good at this kind of thing myself, just interested.

@Helleofabore

So I think there is an element of something like an echo chamber?

If a community of activists use the same original sources and repeat the data and the findings, then I guess the opinions will sound the same. There are only so many different takes you can make of the same data. Don't you think?

Absolutely.

But what worries me with MN is that I get the impression a lot of posters think their opinions are pretty mainstream, because they see them backed up here. For example, the idea that lesbians are pressured into sex with transwomen, or are imagined to be transphobic if they don't want sex with transwomen.

I am aware there is what I called a 'lunatic fringe' earlier, of trans activists who have said some pretty eye-watering things about the 'cotton ceiling'. But, I also know that it's not a hugely mainstream experience amongst lesbians I know, to have been made to feel transphobic. Who's right? We'd need a massive survey to even begin to find out, but the telling thing for me is that, so often, posts on MN take it for granted the MN view is the right one. That, to me, is what makes it feel like an echo chamber.

But if that were the issue, surely there would also be passionate defences of young lesbians on threads about people's daughters coming out? And on the whole, there are not.

I wouldn't dream of posting on the LGBT board. That seems to me to be a board that should be left for that community. And if they are posting on the FWR board about what their daughter's experience, those posts get plenty of support.

There would be posters seeing threads like those I linked, and rushing on to be supportive, because they would be worried about their own daughters being discriminated against.

Again, how many are regulars on AIBU.

And it's not that I'm saying there are no supportive posts on 'general' lesbian threads, but I think the concentration of posts on trans issues is pretty telling.

Where? Only a board that was hived off from the main feminism board because so many posters claimed it was hateful and they simply did not want to see those posts? Of course they will be a concentration on trans issues there.

I know that I am not the only one who would not post on the LGBT board. If I saw a thread that I felt I have some knowledge or experience to offer about adult lesbians I would post there too.

If a community of activists use the same original sources and repeat the data and the findings, then I guess the opinions will sound the same. There are only so many different takes you can make of the same data. Don't you think?

Yes I think this is relevant.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I just know the writer is a MNer because of the way she talks about trans issues. I've not been wrong yet. So I think there is an element of something like an echo chamber?

In what sense do you perceive that a random poster is a mumsnetter? As to me the tone on FWR on trans issues is very similar in other parts of the internet that are 30s/40s/50s female oriented such as GC Facebook groups, Twitter etc. Do you know what demographic the posters are from? How do you know you guessed correctly, did they confirm they post on MN/read MN? I'm not saying you don't btw, I'm fairly good at this kind of thing myself, just interested.

YY, I've got in touch and asked! Or dropped a hint and they picked it up.

It is interesting.

Of course often it's positive stuff too. There is a really distinctive MN way of responding when someone is talking about a man who doesn't pull his weight at home - you know, we all post to the OP telling her how much money a live-in nanny/cook/cleaner would cost, we point out how he's exploiting her labour, we debunk the 'men don't see dirt' myth.

I have to be a bit careful on other forums that I use, because if I go in full-on MN, I usually have to backtrack because that combination of responses may not be totally familiar to posters.

That's just an example.

@Helleofabore

But if that were the issue, surely there would also be passionate defences of young lesbians on threads about people's daughters coming out? And on the whole, there are not.

I wouldn't dream of posting on the LGBT board. That seems to me to be a board that should be left for that community. And if they are posting on the FWR board about what their daughter's experience, those posts get plenty of support.

There would be posters seeing threads like those I linked, and rushing on to be supportive, because they would be worried about their own daughters being discriminated against.

Again, how many are regulars on AIBU.

And it's not that I'm saying there are no supportive posts on 'general' lesbian threads, but I think the concentration of posts on trans issues is pretty telling.

Where? Only a board that was hived off from the main feminism board because so many posters claimed it was hateful and they simply did not want to see those posts? Of course they will be a concentration on trans issues there.

I know that I am not the only one who would not post on the LGBT board. If I saw a thread that I felt I have some knowledge or experience to offer about adult lesbians I would post there too.

Oh, I'm not talking about the LGBT board - it's invariably totally dead! I don't think anyone much posts there. It's a shame.

Clearly, since this thread is on AIBU and so are most of the threads I'm talking about (or on Chat), these posters are regulars there.

I don't really go on FWR much these days so no, I really am talking about threads like this one, which become enormous 'trans issues' threads, versus threads like those I linked, which are mostly not about the T, and therefore seem not to elicit the same concern for lesbians.

am aware there is what I called a 'lunatic fringe' earlier, of trans activists who have said some pretty eye-watering things about the 'cotton ceiling'.

They're all over Twitter, I think if you spend a lot of time on there and other social media sites it would feel like a pretty hostile experience, and that's what my lesbian friends tell me (although they are GC feminists so I don't claim that they are a representative sample). It's all part of the wider misogyny which is pretty intense and all encompassing on social media. And that I do feel I can comment on, and I know a lot of women downplay and minimise misogyny and sexism in general.

I am aware there is what I called a 'lunatic fringe' earlier, of trans activists who have said some pretty eye-watering things about the 'cotton ceiling'. But, I also know that it's not a hugely mainstream experience amongst lesbians I know, to have been made to feel transphobic. Who's right?

And my overhearing the group of seven young lesbians saying just that (because I am a mum and fade into the background) should be telling you that these girls are getting this perception from somewhere.

And it seems to be a regular thing on tiktok and YouTube videos which this group watch and read.

Of course often it's positive stuff too. There is a really distinctive MN way of responding when someone is talking about a man who doesn't pull his weight at home - you know, we all post to the OP telling her how much money a live-in nanny/cook/cleaner would cost, we point out how he's exploiting her labour, we debunk the 'men don't see dirt' myth.

YY I can recognise that! No is a complete sentence, that kind of thing.