LGBTQ talk in schools

[JaggedStone]

Named changed for this as could be outing.
We are very open with our children and explain life to them in ways they can understand and to ensure they are respectful of everyone and are always open and honest with us.
A LOT of parents have kicked up a fuss about the fact that teachers have spoken to the children today about LGBTQ but it is government mandated as compulsory so essentially the parents can not opt out of it unless they are planning to home school.
Some of the views seem quite hypocritical and some are saying they shouldn’t have these kind of talks yet.
AIBU to think that they are being unreasonable?

Many FWR posters are lesbian and bisexual women themselves.

[quote Helleofabore]And this is Tatchell discussing his views on children accessing porn.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4429999-Posie-Parker-on-GB-News[/quote]
In fact, on this thread there is also this letter from Peter Tatchell from the independent in 1996.

Your thoughtful, compassionate editorial ("Sad tale of a modern- day Juliet", 25 January) on the hounding of the 13-year-old child bride, Sarah Cook, was a much-needed corrective to the hysterical, heartless reaction of the Turkish and British authorities. Although her marriage may be unlawful, there is no evidence that Sarah was coerced into. or harmed by, the relationship with Musa Komaegae.

^Indeed, she appears to have been very happy - until the heavy-handed
intervention of officialdom. Why the authorities should want to (or be allowed to) break up the love between these two teenagers is beyond my comprehension. Isn't there enough emotional unhappiness in the world without adding needlessly to it!^

Moreover, in an era when youth promiscuity is widely condemned, one would expect society to welcome Sarah's and Muse's love and fidelity, rather than seek to destroy it.

The authorities claim that they have Sarah's welfare at heart. However, it's hard to envisage that her welfare is best served by forcing her to undergo the humiliation of a so-called 'virginity test' and by charging the man she loves with rape, despite the evidently consensual nature of their relationship.

This was about a 13 YEAR OLD GIRL and the so called husband at the time was 19. And she then had her very first child at 13. I think the marriage was not legally recognised even.

This is a man who talks about young people having the right to assert their right to determine what they, and others, do with their body - 'including the right to abstain from sex, say “no” and report abusers'.

I would not trust this person to properly teach children about sex education. At. all. Ever. Yet, he is very involved in both going to schools to teach and the creation of these toolkits.

I would really like to know if any poster on this thread could put the above letter in an acceptable light? And could put Peter Tatchell's involvement with sex education for children or even teenagers in an acceptable light?

And MNers in general but I wasn't sure if it was FWR which was being referred to.

@SarahAndQuack I've been on this site for many years and I have never, NOT ONCE, seen any lesbophobia posts, on the contrary, this site is the most pro-lesbian site I have ever come across, so I call bs on your assertion that there is any lesbophobia on here.

[quote Migrainesbythedozen]@SarahAndQuack I've been on this site for many years and I have never, NOT ONCE, seen any lesbophobia posts, on the contrary, this site is the most pro-lesbian site I have ever come across, so I call bs on your assertion that there is any lesbophobia on here.[/quote]
Ok, I'll bite.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4449610-To-be-pissed-off-with-hotels-always-asking-if-wed-prefer-a-twin

This is one of the most recent threads. Some supportive posts, obviously, but also many very quick to gaslight the OP or hint she's making things up when she experiences discriminatory treatment.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/a4063968-DPs-nephew-what-would-you-expect-him-to-call-me

This is one of mine. Some supportive posts, but I don't mind saying I was in tears about others.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4400270-To-be-fed-up-with-people-misgendering-DP-not-trans

Here's another one of mine. I find this one really revealing in terms of the number of posters who seem to be convinced that no one could ever be attracted to a butch-looking woman, and one would naturally lie about it if one's partner looked at all masculine.

I do know people namechange, and I'm sure some of the supportive posts on each of these threads come from people who also comment on FWR or the trans threads. But there is, despite that, a really obvious difference in the volume and the vehemence with which lesbians are 'defended' on threads about trans issues, and the lack of concern with which casual lesbophobia is treated on other threads.

Start a thread titled 'I think my DD aged 14 is gay' and I can almost promise that sooner or later, someone will tell you it might be a phase.

Start a thread with 'Think I'm a lesbian after being married to a man,' and someone will pop up sooner or later to claim that you can't be a lesbian if you've ever slept with a man/to insist you must be bisexual because a 'real' lesbian would never have had sex with a man.

Absolutely standard, basic lesbophobia.

Btw, this really isn't a FWR issue. I used to be a regular on FWR; the only reason I'm not any more is that it got dominated by threads about trans issues and I just found it stifling. I'm a perfectly standard radical feminist.

Btw, this really isn't a FWR issue. I used to be a regular on FWR; the only reason I'm not any more is that it got dominated by threads about trans issues and I just found it stifling. I'm a perfectly standard radical feminist.

Yet you use the usual denigrations towards posters that poster's usually encounter on FWR. Calling posters 'anti-trans' and calling people into account for their 'fake concern'.

The reality is, if you posted your post about your DP on the FWR board, you would have received a huge amount of support. So many people you are demonising would have been supporting you on that thread.

But, you have your own prejudices about posters on MN to deal with and I doubt that anything anyone here says will change that.

@GaiusHelenMohiam

And also how can we explain homosexuality to children if we can’t define sex?

Gender ideology and same sex attraction can’t coexist. One cancels the other out.

Exactly. And some people here are thinking this is about equal rights and are not reading the nuances of the thread. We can be ALL for equal rights and yet see that teaching a primary aged child that there are 101 genders is confusing the lines and in fact undermining the understanding and acceptance that gay and lesbian people have fought for for decades.

@Helleofabore

Btw, this really isn't a FWR issue. I used to be a regular on FWR; the only reason I'm not any more is that it got dominated by threads about trans issues and I just found it stifling. I'm a perfectly standard radical feminist.

Yet you use the usual denigrations towards posters that poster's usually encounter on FWR. Calling posters 'anti-trans' and calling people into account for their 'fake concern'.

The reality is, if you posted your post about your DP on the FWR board, you would have received a huge amount of support. So many people you are demonising would have been supporting you on that thread.

But, you have your own prejudices about posters on MN to deal with and I doubt that anything anyone here says will change that.

I promise you, though, my issue isn't with feminism.

And I am absolutely sure you're right I would have received more supportive responses about DP on the FWR board, but this thread happens to be in AIBU. And it is full of posters very eagerly 'defending' lesbians. So the appropriate comparison is, obviously, to other threads on AIBU. Not those on FWR.

And deserve might I add. (Add to my last post)

Start a thread titled 'I think my DD aged 14 is gay' and I can almost promise that sooner or later, someone will tell you it might be a phase

On this note, these days it's incredibly heavy at school. Alot of pressure to decide yourself. Schools are and have created an environment where everyone is incredibly invested in the sexuality of children.

Its not that people think being gay is a phase. It's that it's perfectly normal to still have no idea in your teens. I certainly didn't.my focus was school and homework and friends. But with this desperation to appear inclusive in schools kids are feeling pressured to pick a label even if they don't know yet. Hell even not knowing yet has been given a lable under the lgbtq+

Kids outing themselves or feeling pressured into defining themselves before they are ready is a concern whether they are gay or straight or bi.

That's why it is incredibly difficult at the moment to navigate this road with children

@Whatwouldscullydo

Start a thread titled 'I think my DD aged 14 is gay' and I can almost promise that sooner or later, someone will tell you it might be a phase

On this note, these days it's incredibly heavy at school. Alot of pressure to decide yourself. Schools are and have created an environment where everyone is incredibly invested in the sexuality of children.

Its not that people think being gay is a phase. It's that it's perfectly normal to still have no idea in your teens. I certainly didn't.my focus was school and homework and friends. But with this desperation to appear inclusive in schools kids are feeling pressured to pick a label even if they don't know yet. Hell even not knowing yet has been given a lable under the lgbtq+

Kids outing themselves or feeling pressured into defining themselves before they are ready is a concern whether they are gay or straight or bi.

That's why it is incredibly difficult at the moment to navigate this road with children

But homosexuality isn't a 'decision'.

I agree with you it's perfectly normal for teenagers to be unsure about sexuality, absolutely. But it is homophobic to see sexuality as a 'decision' someone makes.

It's that it's perfectly normal to still have no idea in your teens. I certainly didn't.my focus was school and homework and friends
Yes, it may be perfectly normal, but it's also totally normal to know who you are attracted to as a teen.
I knew I was definitely attracted to males and straight from around age 11.
Surely it's OK to let them know that it's OK to be attracted to the opposite sex if they're sure too, especially if they're being told it's not at home or have parents who want to keep them uneducated?

but it is homophobic to see sexuality as a 'decision' someone makes
Exactly, you don't decide, you just 'are.' '

The decide was meant to say define. I have fat fingers.

But the pressure to define yourself is there.

The pressure to be inclusive in your sexuality is also there. Many girls do end up saying they are lesbian or asexual to buy themselves some time.

We need to remove this pressure because it is no longer enough to declare your sexuality you have to also prove it. This pushes kids into situations they don't actually to be in.

The worst thing is it's all admin. It's a box schools can check to say they are being inclusive. Truth is once they have lulled these kids into a false sense of security that they can " come out" the kids are left high and dry.

We need to back off. Let kids work ot out in their own time and make sure they know we are here fir them.

Instead everyone's so invested in the lgbt status if their child ( if I announced my 8 year old was straight on social media you'd think I was weird and a bit creepy)

These kids are being used. When one set if kids is being celebrated and held up as a school mascots and the symbol of parental goals there's no room for working it out or continuing to work it out or just not worrying about it right now. It's decided fir you on the Internet forever

@3peassuit

No objection to children learning about LGB. I think the TQ bit is too much for primary aged DC to understand.

I'm not sure that many adults manage to understand it in its entirety.

Thanks for clarifying about 'define'.

And it is full of posters very eagerly 'defending' lesbians. So the appropriate comparison is, obviously, to other threads on AIBU.

Sure, except this one only caught my eye as it was about education in schools. I am sure that I am not the only one who doesn't visit AIBU often. In fact, if you posted using those terms 'anti-trans' etc on FWR you would probably be deleted because no one should be making negative generalisations in that way about any group of posters.

You may not realise it but many posters who are talking about the educational toolkits and resources being used in schools are posters who have been following this issue for a few years now. We have seen the 'failed' resources that are being used. This is not based on hatred. This is based on research and seeing for ourselves.

You have used the following terms towards women pointing out the issues that have been discovered and noted over the past few years.

MN echo chamber
anti-trans
faux concern
pearl-clutchers

Towards most people who are agreeing with you that YES, families with same sex parents should be definitely be treated as normal, completely without any exceptions. But who seem to disagree with you about the way that transgender beliefs are treated in school. (I don't even know what you believe there because it is being swamped in the demonising of other posters)

There were very few people on this thread actually disagreeing that same sex relationships should be discussed at a top level. A very large percentage were discussing the ramifications of poorly developed resources being used to discuss gender identities and how something so complex seems to be constantly addressed by reinforcing stereotypes. (like, only boys have short hair for instance. Like WTAF).

And some people were concerned because their schools would not even show them the material or discuss it with them. They were treated like people coming at this from a position of hate, and not from a position of knowing their child and their child's ability to process the information and any political messaging that might just be accompanying those toolkits and lesson plans.

Surely it's OK to let them know that it's OK to be attracted to the opposite sex if they're sure too, especially if they're being told it's not at home or have parents who want to keep them uneducated?

Has there been a poster who has said that it is not ok to be attracted to the opposite sex on this thread?

I think you'll find 'pearl clutcher' is classic MN-ese, and long predates trans issues being a particular interest on here. I'm pretty sure Dittany was using it back in the day.

The other terms - yes, those are indeed descriptive of what I see and recognise on MN these days, and it is such a pity. This site used to be a truly brilliant resource for women and so many good, interesting FWR posters drifted away because, wherever they stood on trans issues, it is just boring when every thread becomes dominated by them.

I am fairly sure I've been 'following' this issue at least as long as you, if not longer. However, I really don't think you are doing the wonderful awareness-raising work you imagine.

I am fairly sure I've been 'following' this issue at least as long as you, if not longer. However, I really don't think you are doing the wonderful awareness-raising work you imagine.

And you are?

What do you mean, and I am?

@Thelnebriati

I'm going to be a pedant and remind everyone that the original reason for PHSE was to tackle the epidemic of male violence against girls in schools. Now girls are called bigotted if they object to mixed sex toilets.

I had no idea

Doing wonderful awareness-raising' work? I take it you mean on this thread?

If you did not mean on this thread, I do apologise and in turn ask what you mean?