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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Child safeguarding- who is right?

273 replies

sparkycats · 22/01/2022 19:20

Who is right in this situation?

My DH is one of the coaches for a children's sports team which DS attends. The coaches are all volunteers giving up there own time to coach the teams which all their dcs attend along with other dcs. It's busy up at the venue with lots of other teams playing of all different ages with matches against away teams too with other parents and dcs.

On the coaches group they get a message from a disgruntled parent saying that her DH arrived to pick her child up at the venue afterwards and no-one was there, they were worried about where their dc was and when they went home they found their dc9 had walked home alone. The dc had said everyone left and he was all alone so decided to walk home.

Discussions happen on the group and it turns out several of the coaches were still there 20 minutes after pick up time, and had not seen this child. More coaches comment that they saw this child on their way out at the end when coaches etc were all still around. They stopped him and asked if he was ok, he said he was, they assumed he was allowed to walk home alone. Turns out he had been dropped off unattended and the parents were late to collect.

The club is very lax on safeguarding, parents aren't told implicitly that they have to stay but all other parents do. There is no sign in/sign out procedure. Coaches keep an eye out for the kids during/after the matches as much as they can. But it's not an official club, it's run totally by volunteers and payment for membership is paid annually.

This parent/ child has form.

Who is right?

OP posts:
Missey85 · 23/01/2022 14:57

The parents are wrong if they were running late they should have phoned not up to the coaches to wait all night also the kid said he was OK he could've said something and the parents could have been contacted

worriedatthemoment · 23/01/2022 14:59

@converseandjeans your be surprised at how many criticise and have ideas but don't actually want to step up
My 2 ds have gone to several sports clubs where there isn't a sign in / out register but the coaches know the kids and parents etc and the kids don't go if no parent there and have had to wait behind, as they get older it is easier As many do make own way
That said safeguarding at the places where he coaches is good and its something regularly reviewed all coaches are dbs checked etc
But there are a shortage of people wanting to help these days as lots of time is taken up and courses to attend , paperwork etc and it is a hard and sometimes thankless task

endofthelinefinally · 23/01/2022 15:05

You only have to read MN to realise that huge numbers of people, even those in professions/organisations that should know, do not understand safeguarding.
This has been a useful thread in that you have had some good, sound advice, OP.
I have read some threads on here that have really shocked me.

Flynnqwer · 23/01/2022 15:07

This thread is breathtaking.

How can you, as a parent of a child who attends the club, not know if the volunteers are DBS checked? I hope your OH is correct in that they all are.

How is a club operating where they think it’s okay to just assume that a child has been collected by his parents?

And how can you think it would be okay to offer a child a lift without his parents’ knowledge? I know you say that your DC would know not to walk home - but would they know not to accept a lift from another parent or a coach, given that you think it’s okay for you to offer them to other kids?

I mean… what would happen if there is a coach or volunteer, possibly with or without a DBS, or another parent, with bad intentions, who told a child that they were to be taken home by them that day and their parent had said this was okay? Is no one keeping check that the children are leaving with their own parents/carers?

This is absolutely astonishing in its complete incompetence and neglect of safeguarding these children. My nephew is much younger, but the idea that he could attend a club where he could be taken advantage of by an adult he would think he could trust, and none of the other adults in a position of authority and responsibility would know or care, makes my blood run cold.

This is just shockingly appalling.

Flynnqwer · 23/01/2022 15:10

@Missey85

The parents are wrong if they were running late they should have phoned not up to the coaches to wait all night also the kid said he was OK he could've said something and the parents could have been contacted
The coaches weren’t waiting at all because no one noticed this nine year old child wandering off on his own.

The parents should have been on time. But what if a parent has a flat tyre on the way to pick their child up? Or a parent has a heart attack whilst observing their child? It’s not okay for all the adults volunteering at the club to collectively shrug and assume the child is okay.

pinkpip100 · 23/01/2022 15:15

OP, I think you're getting an unfairly hard time on here. My dc used to attend what sounds like a very similar club (probably the same sport from the sound of it). It was an unspoken rule that parents either stayed for the duration, or made an arrangement with another parent to be responsible for their child throughout. But, I would agree that this needs to be more than an unspoken rule, it should be made explicit with no room for doubt, and all new members need to be made aware of this. Also I would say that the coaches all need current DBS checks, as even though they aren't alone with children, they are very much in a 'trusted adult' position. Surely if parents stay with children, then the safeguarding burden is more like that of a 'stay and play' group rather than a nursery, school or holiday club. That's not to suggest they shouldn't have robust safeguarding procedures in place, but ultimately it is the parents that remain responsible.

CrapDrawer · 23/01/2022 15:24

OP: But they didn't. They thought he had left with a parent. No way would they have let him walk home alone if they had known that's what he was doing.

Also OP, in opening post: they assumed he was allowed to walk home alone.

Which was it?

CrapDrawer · 23/01/2022 15:31

You’ve also said here that he head allowed to slip away unnoticed but that’s not what happened. People watched him leave.

Is it possible for a child to slip away unnoticed? That's what happened here. He wasn't left on the pitch alone.

You do seem to want the club to improve their safeguarding procedures but you also seem to want to attribute blame to the child. The child having misbehaved in the past, as you have mentioned, is irrelevant. They weren’t naughty in “slipping away” they were allowed to leave through the negligence of people running the club. If you truly want safeguarding to improve you have to come from a place that understands that the safeguarding of children is the adults’ responsibility and that the policies and procedures in place need to robust. Adults need to be trained and DBS checked.

CrapDrawer · 23/01/2022 15:32

*he was allowed

Graphista · 23/01/2022 15:34

Here's what you need to use TODAY op

Anyone with concerns about an individual or an organisation’s practice can call
0800 169 1863 and ask for The FA's Safeguarding Team, or via email on [email protected].

This is the whistleblowing number/email

https://www.thefa.com/-/media/thefacom-new/files/rules-and-regulations/safeguarding/section-1/1-1-affiliated-footballs-safeguarding-policy-procedures-black-and-white-version.ashx

I found that info fairly quickly and easily online op!

Graphista · 23/01/2022 15:37

If they continue to operate in the way they are and it comes to the notice of the FA then chances are FA will remove their membership privileges and support!

Surely this isn't the first time something like this has happened in such a large national club.

Possibly not, but it will be because of previous incidents that certain procedures will be expected to be in place - and that very likely includes ALL coaches being dbs checked and safeguarding trained at the very least I'd have thought

From the FA's own leaflet (linked) on safeguarding within their organisation.

All staff, volunteers, trustees, board members and committees must understand:
I. That safeguarding is everyone’s responsibility;

Clearly at this club they don't!

Nor this

VI. When and how to report concerns relating to our organisation;

Football is committed to recruiting safely and fairly including:
Ensuring DBS checks are undertaken and renewed in line with the Disclosure and Barring Service and our own guidance;

That obviously isn't happening

Neither is this

Football is committed to ensuring our staff, volunteers, trustees, board members and committees, receive a safeguarding induction and training appropriate to the level and requirements of their role which are both updated regularly.

I really could go on and on and on just with what you've posted on this thread!

This club needs to be shut down until they actually practice what they are supposed to be doing!

This is one of those clubs.

Yep!

Graphista · 23/01/2022 15:39

I am thinking at the very least the fact this club isn't following the rules set out by it's governing body, then if they have public liability insurance through the FA I'm thinking chances are if something terrible WERE to happen then the insurers wouldn't pay out!

A local boys club years ago had zero paperwork and in the end they reckoned the treasurer took around £8k over a couple of years).

I became involved with a small local charity concerned with vulnerable adults some years ago. After initial friendliness and attending some meetings I was asked to be the groups secretary officially and as such attend committee meetings, I also have a background in financial admin and upon attending these meetings learned that the treasurer basically acted solely with no oversight. She and her husband/family were supposedly on an income only made up of benefits - as was I. Yet they could afford things I certainly couldn't! New car each, holidays to Florida etc i started querying some stuff...and then the treasurer accused me of trying to steal her husband! She'd been with the organisation a lot longer than me and people believed her and I was effectively forced out. Cut to 6 months later and I bump into the chairman in the local supermarket, turns out that the treasurer had been embezzling for DECADES £10,000's worth! Chairman was all apologetic and telling me that it was about to appear in the local paper as the matter was headed to court!

I then spoke to my aunt (a forensic accountant by trade - I should have mentioned my concerns to her way earlier) who said she wasn't surprised and that it's fairly common in these smaller clubs and charities.

But kids sometimes do “I can’t believe they did that!” over big things.

oh for sure!

My dd is a fearless daredevil on physical stuff and has had my heart in my mouth on many an occasion, I was often first aider in the groups I volunteered with as I was an hcp/ex hcp at various points and the stories of HOW the kids injured themselves were often bonkers!

Kids are daft!

Also sometimes it's through doing perfectly ordinary things they hurt themselves just through a confluence of minor issues colliding!

It’s super annoying when parents are late. Especially as it’s frequently the same ones repeatedly. And child shouldn’t have lied. But that doesn’t mean it’s not the coaches responsibility

Yes it's sadly a pretty common issue with such activities for kids - there's always one family like this! It's maddening to deal with but I'd never blame the child! YOU are still blaming a 9 YEAR OLD KID for the fact that the ADULTS with LEGAL DUTY OF CARE have FAILED in that duty!

If something had happened to him and your dh and/or the other coaches were facing legal ramifications blaming a primary aged kid would not wash!

the more you post the more your dreadfull attitude shows itself.

Yep!

Graphista · 23/01/2022 15:40

Also agree that your comment that if you'd have seen him you'd have given him a lift home shows how unaware you are of safeguarding advice which I repeat includes measures that protect adults from malicious allegations too.

You aren't dealing with your average person here. Which makes it trickier.

Yes you've said/alluded to this several times too.

The parents were also irresponsible of course and if they posted they'd probably get slated! But they didn't post you did from the perspective of your dh being a volunteer with this club.

If anything the mother being of this type that's MORE reason NOT less to follow guidelines to the letter! Because as you've also mentioned she IS the type to complain, to not acknowledge her own failings here!

These are exactly the kind of parents that safeguarding guidelines and procedures PROTECT THE VOLUNTEERS from

Again having been in similar roles myself it's the "awkward" parents you have to be absolutely on point with!

Graphista · 23/01/2022 15:47

is there a way to contact the club in the event of an emergency so someone knows the parent is running late?

Good question - and frankly with ALL the other corners cut and failures here I'm guessing this isn't being done properly either!

being in a situation where he’s building relationships with children without following proper procedures will make people say “Why not?” if anything ever got said.

Absolutely!

When I was doing scouts at one point my then dh was testing for a badge for us (experts are brought in for such things) he was thoroughly background checked as he was in the army and was surprised that he still had to follow certain rules, it involved some safety equipment that had to be worn and checked before the activity BY an expert for safety reasons but this naturally required brief physical contact with the children, and I explained he needed to ONLY do this with another adult observing, he got a bit frustrated at one point and was (just to me) like "this is crazy! Why are they so strict?" And I explained to him then that it wasn't only to protect the children (though that of course is the most important factor) but also to protect any of the volunteers from malicious allegations - or even just misunderstandings! He got it then!

The communication and record keeping just needs to be miles better.

Omg yes! If something happened insurers/lawyers would make absolute mincemeat of them!

Just remembered to mention - sign in sheets ALSO important in case of fires or similar disasters. Local to me there are AstroTurf pitches as part of a community centre just off a main road. A few years back a van driver took a heart attack while driving and basically ploughed through the fence and onto the pitch while the under 15s were practicing. One of the kids got sent flying under some kind of gazebo to the side which also collapsed and they were unconscious, one coach also unconscious the other dazed, he handed the sign in sheet to emergency services as asked and this was the point at which they realised there was a kid unaccounted for and went searching and found him.

These things are in place for a reason!

If the email the coach sends now states that parents must stay to supervise their child and collect them is this enough?

Absolutely not!

There is FAR more they are SUPPOSED to be doing that it's clear from your posts they really aren't!

Whoever is the local safeguarding lead genuinely needs sacking - I wasn't being flippant on that! They're not doing the job REMOTELY closely to the standard they are supposed to be.

Look at that leaflet and the other info on the page/site I linked there's TONS the FA is a expecting they're doing that they're not!

Would take FAR too much writing to even bullet point the stuff the club is meant to be doing and IS NOT here. That's how bad it is!

It was also said that a couple of children turned up who had previously said they weren't coming. Don't know how you can police that though. A firm policy I guess.

That's what a sign in sheet is for. If anything happened - a fire a car accident hell even "just" a Covid outbreak (I can't imagine this isn't breaking Covid guidelines either!) then the club NEEDS to know and have a RECORD of who was there and when/what weeks.

Agree with pp with the fact that a clear safeguarding policy needs to be drawn up, signed by all club leaders and all parents, and adhered to completely. It would also be good practice for all volunteers to attend regular safeguarding trainings.

The FA DOES have a clear safeguarding policy which as far as I can tell this club is SUPPOSED to be following and isn't. It includes that all volunteers have training too

Safeguarding isn't about what's likely on a day to day basis, it's about the worse case scenario and removing those risks.

Exactly

SO SO SO many scenarios not considered here I keep running through them all in my head :

Kid injured at practice

Kid alone with volunteer at practice

Kid alone with volunteer in a secluded place at practice

Kid goes missing

Kid walking home alone gets hit by car

Kid walking home alone assaulted

Kid maliciously accused volunteer of assaulting them

Kid maliciously accuses volunteer of sexual misconduct

Kid assaulted by another kid at practice

Kid abused by another kid at practice

Bullying

Major incident occurs (fire etc) and emergency services can't confidently be sure they've accounted for everyone - this can also lead to emergency personnel unnecessarily risking THEIR lives

One of the volunteers it comes to light OUTSIDE the club that they are a paedo or wife batterer, that they had a criminal record BEFORE becoming a volunteer and the club doesn't know as no background check done - clubs name tarnished forever - as a pp said MUD STICKS!

And on and on and on...

what if an estranged ex turns up who doesnt have custody rights.

And there's another!

That one could also apply to children who are in foster care the birth parents may attempt to take them

Also, groups like this really annoy me as it’s why (understandably) some parents won’t ever send their kids to volunteer run groups as they think they’re all like this. Whereas some of us take the responsibilities seriously.

Totally agree!

This is why the FA when informed will likely be absolutely furious and remove their membership status.

They need to protect their brand - which has already dealt with several safeguarding scandals!

Sorry, I asked DH and the coaches are CRB checked including DH. The head coach has had the safeguarding training.

Well that's a backpedal and a half! And quite honestly I'm not sure I believe you.

If it is a crb then it must be at least 10 years old and should be updated to a dbs

Excellent point. Checks need to be updated regularly anyway

I think most people end up being roped in rather than stepping forward saying they would love to volunteer.

They may feel like that, but in reality it is a choice. Legally they have a duty of care to the children (and even to an extent to other volunteers!)

@worriedatthemoment yes there are parents that are murder to deal with but again I say they're the ones the volunteers MOST need to watch their backs with as they tend also to be the first and most insistent complainers if something DOES go wrong!

You and dh's embarrassment/ostracisation v a child's safety.::

I'd have called the number I posted regardless of an irresponsible dhs opinions!

Does the safeguarding person have to keep my details private if I request it?

Yes. But given how shit they are at the role I can understand you not being confident of this - so call the whistleblowing number!

But at the same time the child made out like the coaches walked off and left him on the pitch intentionally on his own, which was not the case

But neither you nor dh were there - so how would you know? Perhaps he was faffing in the loo came out and everyone had gone?

The coaches on the messages DH showed me seemed to be very defensive and with a tone she was in the wrong. The parents and child has got themselves a reputation even though they haven't been there long which could cloud the coaches judgement on how they need to improve procedures. I get the impression the child is close to being asked to leave anyway.

Wow!

The non safeguarding stuff that may be why they are removed from the club MUST be dealt with and considered separately and however annoying this family are the coaches need to not use that as an excuse to ignore that THEY cocked up here!

None of the other parents seem to see an issue with the safeguarding

Ime that will only be the case unless and until THEIR child is affected and then it'll all kick off! It's more likely to be the case that most parents if they haven't worked or volunteered in roles involving safeguarding themselves simply are unaware and assume if x goes wrong that the club DOES have safeguarding policies and procedures in place which it is following.

It's a lawsuit waiting to happen!

These things can coast along for a while but it's when something does go wrong it all blows up!

That’s the issue. Not one child and one set of parents

Exactly

worriedatthemoment · 23/01/2022 15:52

@Graphista what are you talking about out embarrassment ? At no time did i say we are were embarrassed and child welfare is something we are aware of and follow my dh has dbs and numerous courses etc and like i said has waited 30 mins before after a session has finished for parents to show up or had to call to find out where they were
We put safeguarding first but some parents actually don't appear to its like out of sight our of mind and thats worrying
My dh has coaches for about 12 / 13 years but is packing it in now

Oxborn · 23/01/2022 16:09

Ok SHOULD

Whichcatthatcat · 23/01/2022 16:33

OP, did I just read in one of your posts that you work in childcare.

In that case you will now all this and I think this whole thread is a load of bollocks.

I'm out.

sparkycats · 23/01/2022 16:35

@Whichcatthatcat

OP, did I just read in one of your posts that you work in childcare.

In that case you will now all this and I think this whole thread is a load of bollocks.

I'm out.

I know it from a schools perspective but not necessarily for an out of school club like this one.
OP posts:
endofthelinefinally · 23/01/2022 16:39

IME the fact that some parents are irresponsible and clueless is one very good reason why strict safeguarding rules need to be in place. Just one example was a parent who saw nothing wrong with expecting their 8 year old to wait alone in a dark deserted car park on a country road at 9pm. When told that a coach would have to wait with said child, parent said that was the coach's choice, not theirs. Said parent was always late.

Muchmorethan · 23/01/2022 17:15

We don't have a sign in sheet at rugby as it is in the written policy that PARENTS MUST STAY on pitchside and the club do not take responsibility for any unsupervised child outside of the session.

JustLyra · 23/01/2022 17:47

@Muchmorethan

We don't have a sign in sheet at rugby as it is in the written policy that PARENTS MUST STAY on pitchside and the club do not take responsibility for any unsupervised child outside of the session.
There should still be one for referencing back.

If a child, six months down the line, says a volunteer (or another parent) exposed themselves or racially abused them or slapped them in the toilets one of the first things looked at will be “who was there on that date?”

converseandjeans · 23/01/2022 18:09

graphista

This would be an opportunity for said parents to step up and help. If the coaches aren't able to observe themselves then another parent needs to do this job. Someone to sign the players into and out of the session.

I imagine coaches are packing kit and balls and bibs away.

At the very least the parents should have put on the WhatsApp that they were running late and asked another parent to wait. That's the normal thing to do.

Maybe they will take their child out if they don't feel it's safe for him.

Safeguarding is vital yes - but parents have a part to play in safeguarding their own child.

RepentMotherfucker · 23/01/2022 18:21

@converseandjeans

graphista

This would be an opportunity for said parents to step up and help. If the coaches aren't able to observe themselves then another parent needs to do this job. Someone to sign the players into and out of the session.

I imagine coaches are packing kit and balls and bibs away.

At the very least the parents should have put on the WhatsApp that they were running late and asked another parent to wait. That's the normal thing to do.

Maybe they will take their child out if they don't feel it's safe for him.

Safeguarding is vital yes - but parents have a part to play in safeguarding their own child.

Of course. But some parents don't. So while clubs are in loco parentis the lines of responsibility and accountability need to be crystal clear.

Otherwise some well meaning type like OP's DH finds themselves in the witness box answering questions like, 'when you saw him leave that might did it occur to you to wonder where his parents were?' and that sort of shit ruins lives even if you don't end up doing six months inside.

JustLyra · 23/01/2022 18:39

@converseandjeans

graphista

This would be an opportunity for said parents to step up and help. If the coaches aren't able to observe themselves then another parent needs to do this job. Someone to sign the players into and out of the session.

I imagine coaches are packing kit and balls and bibs away.

At the very least the parents should have put on the WhatsApp that they were running late and asked another parent to wait. That's the normal thing to do.

Maybe they will take their child out if they don't feel it's safe for him.

Safeguarding is vital yes - but parents have a part to play in safeguarding their own child.

Could other parents step up - yes

Could, and should, they have messaged - yes

Were the coaches busy - yes very likely

Does that absolute the club of the fact that this is 100% their fault - no.

They are the ones running the club. They are the ones with the responsibility.

Safeguarding is vital yes - but parents have a part to play in safeguarding their own child.

Adults running an activity like this have 100% of the responsibility for ensuring the children safety in their care. Either by taking full responsibility for the children or for very clearly ensuring that all parents know, and abide, by the 'adults must stay' rules. This particular club did neither thing. That is all on them.

If the coaches aren't able to observe themselves then another parent needs to do this job.

The coaches need to do this and either find a helper to do the tidying away if necessary or do it after. If they don't want to take longer and don't have a helper then they stop running. The coaches need to prioritise the safeguarding of the children first and foremost - cutting corners in that area is the last option.

sparkycats · 23/01/2022 18:40

@Graphista

Here's what you need to use TODAY op

Anyone with concerns about an individual or an organisation’s practice can call
0800 169 1863 and ask for The FA's Safeguarding Team, or via email on [email protected].

This is the whistleblowing number/email

https://www.thefa.com/-/media/thefacom-new/files/rules-and-regulations/safeguarding/section-1/1-1-affiliated-footballs-safeguarding-policy-procedures-black-and-white-version.ashx

I found that info fairly quickly and easily online op!

Thanks very much. I have sent an email asking for information about a number of areas involved in child safeguarding and what the sign in/out procedures should be. I haven't said about the incident yet. I want to see what they aren't/are following first.

Like I said, I don't go that often so there may be things they have in place that I don't know about. But they definitely don't have a signing in/ out sheet I know that much.

I have asked for the details of the local child protection officer too for this club.

Sorry some details are muddled as I really don't get involved in this activity much. The organising and availability of Ds is up to DH. I am not on any of the WhatsApp groups. I only go occasionally if dh can't go or I want to watch.

OP posts: