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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think you can't be 'Pro choice' if you agree in mandate vaccinations?

362 replies

secular39 · 22/01/2022 15:13

There. I said it.

OP posts:
Justenuff · 22/01/2022 20:50

YANBU. Mumsnet is generally very pro-choice, advocating bodily autonomy so I've been absolutely aghast at the endless "Get vaxxed or go to hell" threads. Thread after thread after thread for months.

Original poster
secular39 · 22/01/2022 20:59

@Theunamedcat

So, we should have the right to abortion

The right not to be forced into being vaccinated

What about the right to die? Its something many people want they can do it in other countries why can't we do that here?

What about the right to kill someone? A murderer obviously not just anyone on the streets but why not?

Why not mix every single right that people want in a big ball under PRO-CHOICE just to prove a point that no one is even sure of

Has anyone asked WHY? why don't they want the vaccine none of that "untested bollocks" because they modified one they were already working on its not like they started from scratch they literally turned a Victoria sponge into chocolate cake yes its a bit rough around the edges not as refined as we would normally get but still a working vaccine it the timeline is fantastic work why do all these people who work for the NHS not want to take it

Not everyone agree will with your choices though. Taking ones life is completely different and you know this.

Body autonomy is about having a personal choice about what someone wants to do with their own body. Killing someone is an infliction towards someone else to cause harm- same as if a man abuses a woman. Linking body autonomy akin to murderers is stupid and completely dangerous.

OP posts:
Original poster
secular39 · 22/01/2022 21:01

@Justenuff

YANBU. Mumsnet is generally very pro-choice, advocating bodily autonomy so I've been absolutely aghast at the endless "Get vaxxed or go to hell" threads. Thread after thread after thread for months.
Exactly- and the venom is not only towards NHS workers. Mumsnet throws venom towards normal folks, who have normal jobs, who have decided to not get the vaccine. Calling them anti-vaxers, uneducated, stupid, woo, odd and selfish.
OP posts:
YeOldeTrout · 22/01/2022 21:01

My husband is a doctor, he has hepatitis jabs each year

I'm just so surprised when I read that I thought the Hep jabs were just a few doses in life, not annual. Also thought the Hep Jabs were to protect the health care workers from germs in patient bodily fluids who knew that so many health care workers were exposing their bodily fluids to colleagues & patients?

JigglyPiggly · 22/01/2022 21:03

@secular39

You've demonstrated most of those comments in your posts on this thread

You clearly are uneducated based on some of the arguments you are trying (and failing) to make

You have a fundamental lack of understanding of how vaccines work, how many healthcare workers have to have others to work as well and the very fact you're trying to compare a vaccine to an abortion is woo in it's finest

Awalkintime · 22/01/2022 21:13

Body autonomy is about having a personal choice about what someone wants to do with their own body.

So what do the nurses do when they have an unconscious patient in front of them? Do they respect their body autonomy?

Broblem · 22/01/2022 21:13

OP, are you going to support my right to smoke in public buildings? If not, why not?

StanleyGreen · 22/01/2022 21:19

@gettingmylifetogether

No. YABU. I'm pro-choice when it comes to pregnancy, because whether or not to have a baby has a massive physical and mental impact on the woman. I will go to my grave defending female freedoms to decide whether or not they want to give birth or not.

Covid vaccines aren't just about you. They're about the people you come into contact with.

Deciding not to have a Covid vaccine is only acceptable if your medical history suggests it's a bad idea and/or you intend to live in a cave. If you want to participate in society and your doctor sees no reason why you can't have the vaccine, yes, you're being selfish.

Firstly I'll begin with saying I'm pro choice for both abortion and Vaccines. But you are saying it's more important to protect other people by having a vaccine than it is to end an unborn childs life. Because no matter how you want to dress it up, you're ending a life having an abortion.
user1745 · 22/01/2022 21:21

@TeenPlusCat

Depends what you mean by 'mandatory'. If literally the police are locking people up for not being vaccinated, regardless of other behaviour, then YANBU. If you mean people in a pandemic are more restricted if they choose not to have a vaccine that is proven to reduce transmission and severity, then YABU. Ditto if people want to work with vulnerable people.
What if abortion is not illegal, but we were to heavily discourage by means of restrictions and deterrents for women who choose it? Do you think a person could support that and still be pro-choice?

For example, requiring women to pay for abortions, and for treatment for any complications afterwards, while pregnancy care and births are still free. Would that be fair? I would argue that when you disincentivise a choice in that way, for many people it becomes not really a choice (i.e a woman on the poverty line will opt against abortion because she cannot afford it), and thus it's not consistent to call yourself pro-choice and yet support it. This is obvious to anyone when it comes to the abortion debate but apparently not when it comes to the vaccination debate. This example is roughly similar to what many are advocating with regard to making the unvaccinated pay for any Covid medical treatment they need.

There is a point at which restrictions and disincentives edge into the territory of coercion, and society has generally agreed that medical coercion is unethical.

The vaccine also is not proven to reduce transmission, certainly not any more than alternatives such as regular testing would.

Getyourjinglebellsinarow · 22/01/2022 21:24

YANBU either you support bodily autonomy or you believe people should be forced into something (vaccine/pregnancy) for the benefit of others (that old man down the street/ your unborn child).

Buzzinwithbez · 22/01/2022 21:30

So I learned about informed consent and body autonomy when I had my babies. I experienced the difference between midwives that understand consent and those that either think they do or simply don't care... And of doctors that definitely had a funny idea of consent.

I worry that medics who will not support their colleagues are unlikely to be able to obtain consent from their patients either.

LunaAndHerMoonDragons · 22/01/2022 21:34

YANBU, this doesn't sit well with me, FWIW I'm double backed, but your body your choice. Bodily Autonomy matters.

Beowulfthethird · 22/01/2022 21:36

No I don't agree with you. They're entirely different issues for me.

If you were giving patients, pregnant women and care home residents the choice of vaccinated or unvaccinated HCP, or if you were not giving HCP the choice to leave the profession if they weren't prepared to take a safe vaccine (and vaccines have always been mandated for medics-you can't go to medical school without them) there might be more of a conversation to be had.

Awalkintime · 22/01/2022 21:36

I worry that medics who will not support their colleagues are unlikely to be able to obtain consent from their patients either.

But the very nurses protesting about autonomy do not obtain consent themselves some of the time which is ironic.

Beowulfthethird · 22/01/2022 21:40

What if abortion is not illegal, but we were to heavily discourage by means of restrictions and deterrents for women who choose it? Do you think a person could support that and still be pro-choice?

How hysterical. Having an abortion to work in your job and having and a very safe vaccine are hardly comparable. I remember trotting along for various extra vaccinations as a prospective medical student and accepting this was necessary to work with vulnerable people. It would have been a very different experience to be asked to terminate my pregnancy. Something of a straw man there.

ldontWanna · 22/01/2022 21:42

YANBU. Whether I agree with someone's choice to vaccinate or not , is irrelevant. I do however believe they have the right to (freely) choose and support that.

echt · 22/01/2022 21:45

@secular39

There. I said it.
YABU.

Pro-choice is one person and doesn't affect others.

Vaxxing does affect others.

user1471453601 · 22/01/2022 21:50

What absolute bollocks.

If you have a abortion or not, it's not going to kill me or other cev people. Not being vaccinated may kill us.

DropYourSword · 22/01/2022 21:55

@secular39

There. I said it.
There were mandated vaccinations for healthcare workers before COVID-19. Were we not pro-choice back then too then?
FriedTomatoe · 22/01/2022 22:01

I'm fed up of how awful people are being about this. I'm having issues at the lack of information about the vaccine with regards to adolescents and fertility in later life. I'm past reproductive age - having the vaccine has no downside for me. However, if I was 17 years old I might feel differently about it. Although there are loads of scientists saying how safe it is - how can anyone say with any degree of confidence that there aren't long term effects? In this regard, maybe there is a case for pro-choice.

milkyaqua · 22/01/2022 22:03

Oh my god. You can't just say 'bodily autonomy!' several times and there's your argument. They are two very different situations.

JigglyPiggly · 22/01/2022 22:04

@FriedTomatoe

I'm fed up of how awful people are being about this. I'm having issues at the lack of information about the vaccine with regards to adolescents and fertility in later life. I'm past reproductive age - having the vaccine has no downside for me. However, if I was 17 years old I might feel differently about it. Although there are loads of scientists saying how safe it is - how can anyone say with any degree of confidence that there aren't long term effects? In this regard, maybe there is a case for pro-choice.
Someone else demonstrating their ignorance

The entire point is vaccine side effects are seen quickly, there are no 'long term effects' as that's not how they work

Do you know the long term impact on fertility of the childhood vaccinations?

Awalkintime · 22/01/2022 22:05

@FriedTomatoe

I'm fed up of how awful people are being about this. I'm having issues at the lack of information about the vaccine with regards to adolescents and fertility in later life. I'm past reproductive age - having the vaccine has no downside for me. However, if I was 17 years old I might feel differently about it. Although there are loads of scientists saying how safe it is - how can anyone say with any degree of confidence that there aren't long term effects? In this regard, maybe there is a case for pro-choice.
Just look at the birth rate. Has it fallen drastically since vaccines were introduced?
Thinkbiglittleone · 22/01/2022 22:05

I am pro choice.

Mandating vaccines for job roles does not effect body autonomy, it is a consequence to a choice. Nobody is making them have vaccines, just if they want to be in a role that is dealing with vulnerable people.

Shadedog · 22/01/2022 22:05

Ludicrous comparison. Believing women should have access to safe and legal abortion isn’t the same thing as thinking people with high risk of transmitting a virus should have unfettered access to elderly/sick/vulnerable people receiving care. Nor do they have a human right to compete in the Australian Open or go to an event where a vaccine passport is required. There was none of this “you must want to force women to give birth against their will if you think HCPs shouldn’t perform EPPs when infected with a BBV” nonsense when health clearance for HIV/hep/TB was brought in.