Youngest Daughter in bits on phone - advice please

[Icecreamlover63]

My Youngest Daughter has just been on the phone and is extremely upset. I have seen this coming for some time but i cannot say anything about peoples relationships however i would appreciate some advice.
In 2019 my daughter was engaged and found out that her then fiancée had spent £3 on gambling in six months. He promised he would not do this again was so very repentant and she forgave hi.
In very early 2020 they got married. They moved into military housing about 8 miles away and appeared very happy.
Then they got transferred to Wiltshire and my daughter got a job at a local hospital and promptly made lots of friends and loved her new job. She joined a gym and lost some weight and was looking amazing.
Her husband's, Mother came over in October 2021 and was furious as she had just had a phone call completely out of the blue. It was the bank informing her that her sons account was overdrawn by £600. (when her son went to Afghanistan she had to have access to his accounts in case he died) and she had forgotten all about it.
The account was overdrawn because of 2 large bets of £500 each.
My daughter again lost her temper and he promised never to do it again.
Just before Christmas he took £500 out of their joint account to pay his friend as apparently he had bailiffs at the door. Then he took another £250 out a one of his friends could not see his children. My daughter said can you give those two friends the account number for our joint account so they can pay it back into the account it came out of. Guess what he said he wouldn't and said they money was going back into his sole account.
He has not spoken to my daughter most evenings and only watches football on sky. He refuses to go out at all in January and has ben very rude to her on lots of occasions.
Basically she has had enough of the gambling and the lies and just basically being ignored.

Fast forward to today!! She has just gone back to collect some of her bits and he started screaming at her and saying she was sneaky moving half of the money into her savings account before she had even spoken to him. She moved it this morning as she did not want him to be reckless and bet it away. He then started to blame her for having mental health problems and that when she was at home she was unhappy (not true) and that he had to speak to welfare in the Army to get married quarters early. They got their married quarters 3 weeks before they got married (which is the normal time line).
He has told her she always runs back to London when she is upset. Again not true she has been to us 4 times in 4 months and two of those times he was with her.

She is so upset and so distraught I honestly don't know what to do and she is driving back home now. I wish i could say she was right but I feel it would be wrong for me to say so. Please can you advise me what to do and also if you think she has made the right decision.
I do understand there is 2 sides to the story but my daughter has moved half way across the country and has not lied, she is devestated.

His parents want them back together because they know their life will be impacted by his 'needs' if she doesn't take him back. They want her to take responsibility for 'curing' his addiction so they don't have to. Playing 'nice and sympathetic' didn't work so now they're playing 'guilt and responsibility'. As for him, what is there to say? He is a gambling addict and all addicts need to seek help for themselves, not to get someone back or because someone tells them to. She doesn't need to 'be there' for him to seek help. The fact that he's using it as a bribe shows that he's not serious about changing, he's only giving lip service to it.

I'm sorry, but you need to take a more vocal part in this. It's not 'slagging him off' to tell your DD the truth and keep repeating it over and over. To keep reminding her of things he's done and the lack of love and respect they indicate. You don't have to call him names or attack him personally to let her know that he is not a good partner/spouse. That a gambler is untrustworthy and will inevitably lead to financial ruin and heartbreak for anyone who trusts what they say. And that it's not her job to 'fix him' or 'support him'. He needs to do that on his own! You need to tell her that she needs to block him and his family because she needs to 'stop their noise' so she can get her head back on straight.

Personally, I'd probably give his parents a piece of my mind and tell them that they're perfectly free to 'deal' with their son but to leave my daughter alone!!!

If your daughter works for the NHS she can negotiate her notice. They might want her to stay but they almost certainly won't make her.

From the point of view of a manager, it's not worth making someone work their notice if there's a good chance they'll go off sick. Better to let them go and save the salary.

She also has most likely got outstanding annual leave. Few nhs employees have been able to take their entitlement.

She needs her dad to go with her to collect her stuff. Today. Then she doesn't go back ever.

“Faking a break in….”

WTF have I just read? What is this about?
Is your DD complicit in this? Or could she inadvertently be implicated?

This is a very progressed and entrenched mess.

I agree with PP that his DPs knew he was a wrong ‘un and packed him off to the military so that they didn’t have to be accountable or responsible for their failed parenting - just passed the buck - and again on to your DD. They must have been delighted that she came into their lives to relieve them of any duties and pick up the pieces.

Their harassment and abuse your DD at this difficult time is self serving. Either she tells them to leave her alone, blocks them or you and your DH step right up and tell them to back off.

He is emotionally violent and manipulative.

He has a compulsive and impulsive personality he will not play nicely. She needs to tell him that she is blocking him for a month - that she doesn’t want to see or hear from him - if he disrespects her wishes she will report him for stalking and harassment (it becomes a crime if someone contacts you twice after you have told them not to).

Please keep strong and focused - she needs to get right out of this abusive intergenerational dysfunctional family.

I have just spoken to him be on the phone and told him on no uncertain terms that his behaviour has been unacceptable! I have also told him that whatever happens he must go to GA and stuck at it!
I explained that one situation isn’t reliant on the other.
I did not kick him when he is down I was just calmly very firm.
He actually seems to think that he will win her trust back and become reformed. He actually thinks that once she is back home he can pop down for the odd weekend!
I’ve put him straight and said you will not be staying with us. I’ve told him that his parents must not ring my daughter again and that she has blocked their numbers , as have I.
I explained that my DD is my priority and not him, but added I do want him to get help.

I really just wanted to thank everyone who took the time to reply. It was very kind of you all to help with what has been a horrible weekend.

Sounds like you did great with him, IceCream.

Hope DD hears ESG's excellent advice about a month of No Contact.
If he tries to push that, it gives her good information about the "respect" he is mouthing about so sententiously.

Also - do not allow yourself or your own DH to become the default 'sounding boards' for DD's H. He's not to contact any of you. If he can't hear that - well, he's just making is clear that it's All About Him.

Same rules apply for his parents.
I would have been hard pressed not to give them an almighty rocket for their bullying phone calls - they've shown you & DD who they are, keep them at a distance.

Best of luck to you & DD

Hugs hugs best of luck to both of you.

@Icecreamlover63

I have just spoken to him be on the phone and told him on no uncertain terms that his behaviour has been unacceptable! I have also told him that whatever happens he must go to GA and stuck at it! I explained that one situation isn’t reliant on the other. I did not kick him when he is down I was just calmly very firm. He actually seems to think that he will win her trust back and become reformed. He actually thinks that once she is back home he can pop down for the odd weekend! I’ve put him straight and said you will not be staying with us. I’ve told him that his parents must not ring my daughter again and that she has blocked their numbers , as have I. I explained that my DD is my priority and not him, but added I do want him to get help.

I really just wanted to thank everyone who took the time to reply. It was very kind of you all to help with what has been a horrible weekend.

He actually thinks that once she is back home he can pop down for the odd weekend! I’ve put him straight and said you will not be staying with us

Wait, so this idiot thought he could come and stay with you in order to see her?? Is he really that stupid?

I think you handled your conversation with him very well. It remains to be seen if he even really heard you.

Sounds like that was a good phonecall on your part, @Icecreamlover63.

Your DD needs to stay firm. Addicts will promise the earth to maintain their status quo - this can't happen.
For him to GENUINELY need to get the help, his world DOES need to fall apart, and your DD is not his life-prop. She has her own life. She needs to live it for herself, not spend it all wondering when he's going to crack and go back to his old ways. And he will, if he doesn't experience any negative consequences for his behaviour.

His parents might want your DD to be his support network, but she doesn't need to do that and they can't make her. He's THEIR son - if they want him to have support then that's on them. But in all honesty, if they protect him from the outcome of his behaviour then again, he will not see the real need to change.

I'd block them all now and tell your DD to stay away - away from the married quarters house too, because I'd be worried for her safety if she went back there.

He is an addict.

To maintain their addiction requires constant lies, manipulation, deception.

He is has honed these skills masterfully for many years and he will deploy these same highly developed skills of lies, deceit and manipulation on your DD to get her back.

His best chance of recovery is to go it alone - which any decent programme will tell him - that he should not be in a relationship until he is one year “clean” - because it has to be an intrinsic motivation and achievement not extrinsic (ie dependent or triangulating your DDs support into his recovery).

He had this issue well before they met - he was deceptive every second throughout their relationship - she owes him nothing. But it could be a win-win because leaving him might make him reach his rock bottom - from
where he can rebuild his own life if he wants to.

She needs to be educated on the realities of abusive relationships and addiction so that she can see the cliched script, patterns and behaviors that will play out over the coming weeks and months as he lies and manipulates to get her back.

Read ever action and word of his ultimately self serving - because that’s the mindset of an addict.

I never thought I would need to write on here again.
However yesterday his parents phoned me. They were on the phone for an hour. At first they felt my daughter was bailing out too quickly.
So I sat down calmly and just quoted facts
A) how much money he has wasted
B) how many times this has happened over the last 3 years
C) all of the lies he has told
They are all facts I did not slag him off to them because he is their son at the end of the day.
I told them about the myriad of abusive texts and I explained about everything!
At the end of the conversation I asked if the ball was on the other foot would they be asking their daughter to go back. They both said no. They could not stop apologising and were so sorry.
My son- in- law was very kind and could not do enough for my daughter. But she has told him it’s over so let’s see how he is the nearer to her leaving date. I am beyond worried for her safety.
I feel deeply sorry for anyone with an addiction I really do and part of me wants to text him to support him and part of me thinks he is manipulating me as well as her.
Goodness me I’m so so sorry I’ve never encountered this before I feel so inadequate 😢

Goodness me I’m so so sorry I’ve never encountered this before I feel so inadequate
Chin up OP - you did a grand job on that long call from in laws.
You are very far from inadequate - believe it!

and part of me thinks he is manipulating me as well as her.
You need to believe this with every part of you. Because it is true.

Please see ESG's post at 11:32 above.
He sees you as a route back to his wife.
He even assumed you would welcome him at weekends when DD is with you - despite already having been told, & pretending to accept, that DD was to have a few weeks space!

Bear in mind that no matter how well you handled in in laws today, & their seeming acceptance of your points, that they are likely to waver.
Do not make the mistake of imagining they are your or DD's friends in this.
Their son will manipulate, act out, plead, & ask them to be his flying monkeys, as he realises that DD's resolve is strong & she does not want to see him.
If DD decides, after reflection, that she wants to divorce, be prepared for the in laws to revert to type. If they do - block them. No good will come of you wasting energy that you need to keep for you & DD in trying to placate them or make them see sense, or persuade them of what they'd do if the positions were reversed.

You've had your say & they agreed. For now. If they start up on you again - don't go through it all again, just cut contact.

@Icecreamlover63

I never thought I would need to write on here again. However yesterday his parents phoned me. They were on the phone for an hour. At first they felt my daughter was bailing out too quickly. So I sat down calmly and just quoted facts A) how much money he has wasted B) how many times this has happened over the last 3 years C) all of the lies he has told They are all facts I did not slag him off to them because he is their son at the end of the day. I told them about the myriad of abusive texts and I explained about everything! At the end of the conversation I asked if the ball was on the other foot would they be asking their daughter to go back. They both said no. They could not stop apologising and were so sorry. My son- in- law was very kind and could not do enough for my daughter. But she has told him it’s over so let’s see how he is the nearer to her leaving date. I am beyond worried for her safety. I feel deeply sorry for anyone with an addiction I really do and part of me wants to text him to support him and part of me thinks he is manipulating me as well as her. Goodness me I’m so so sorry I’ve never encountered this before I feel so inadequate 😢

So, now that you've told both your son-in-law AND his parents how you feel, I think it may be time to block them. Or at the very least do not respond to calls or texts. You've said what needed to be said very clearly and politely, and unfortunately once that's done future conversations often 'degenerate' into unpleasantness.

I'm in the US so no idea about how 'notice periods' work in the UK, but it's pretty common here that someone in your DD's situation would just explain they were leaving due to a 'domestic situation' and normally an employer just waves the period or their notice is shortened considerably with no negative ramifications. If you have true concerns about her safety, could your DD explain her situation and ask this of her employer? Especially if it meant that she could do a 'midnight flit' before her STBX expects her to be gone. If not, and it's not too late, I'd suggest she give him a fake leaving date out a week or two from the 'real' one.

I think the parents should back off and not be so involved

Good, glad you got to lay it out to his parents as well.
But I agree that NOW is the time to stop communicating with all of them.
You are absolutely right that you are open to being manipulated by your Son-IL as much as your DD is - so best to stop communicating with him. And he can manipulate people by proxy via his parents - so best to cut comms with them too.

How soon can your DD be home with you?

I have no intention of contacting them again. If they ring me fine I’ll accept the call but I really do have nothing to add. They were so shocked and you may find this surprising but I felt so sorry for his Mum. She has just recovered from a severe illness and then this!
My Daughter in law spoke to him yesterday as he rang her but has said she will no longer speak to him. As he turned an innocent remark into something it wasn’t.

I feel I’m in a hard place right now because my daughter has to live there for another 5 weeks as her employer would not reduce her notice period! So for the time being I’m just replying to texts and that’s it. I feel if I stop right now it will make my daughters life even harder than it is.
I’m so sad and last night when I was sitting here in my own my heart was beating so hard I almost felt like I was having palpitations.
I keep getting such sad calls from her that I’m finding this so hard to function right now.
He has contacted all our friends and has said he intends to win my daughter back after four months and now she feels she will be coming home to a hostile environment or possibly a hostile environment.

It just now seems that everyone is supporting him as he is now finally going to GA but my daughter feels no one is supporting her.
It goes without saying that her family are but right now she feels she cannot even walk down the high street. I fear for her mental health and my poor lovely husband looks exhausted bless him.
I’m so sorry to put up another post but this site has been such a vessel of strength over the past few days you literally have no idea.
Thank you doesn’t seem enough x

5 weeks and then homeward bound. I just feel if he contacts us for the moment we have to answer

@Icecreamlover63

5 weeks and then homeward bound. I just feel if he contacts us for the moment we have to answer

@Icecreamlover63 hello and have great sympathy for you and your daughter. Tbh if I was her I'd be going off sick for as long as possible, she really doesn't need to be in this position for 5 weeks. Make an appointment with her Gp and get a sick note. Good luck.

OMG, what a cock thing to do!!
Isolating your DD from her support network is a classic abuser trick - she has to see past this and continue to do what she is going to do, i.e. leave him.

She has to remember that all these friends, neighbours and Joe Bloggs in the street do not Live Her Life with him, the gambler, the controlling addict. What they think of her is Irrelevant. What IS relevant is her happiness and getting away from him - even if she thinks that everyone else will "hate" her because of what he's said (STILL can't get past that, fucking bastard!!) she has to do what is right for HER.

And this just seals the deal - he's tried to isolate her from everyone else by making her out to be the Bad Guy - nah. He's a grade A shit.

OP,
You are getting some great advice and you sound like a wonderful woman.

I have had a family member of a dear friend go through marriage with a gambler.

Like your son in law he was gambling before they married and for years in their marriage.

They both had good careers and children together.

He relapsed several times and he spent so much money.

The final relapsed caused the selling of their home and their separation.

This lovely, hard working woman is a walkind advertisement of regrets.

She regrets to the bottom of her heart that she didn't leave him the first time she found out.

Her whole marriage of 25 years was full of anxiety about money and keeping things going.

They are now divorced.
She has bought a small house for herself and her two children are now working and living their lives.

She said she now has some peace in her life as he cannot bet her home away but she ruined her life staying with him and having children with him.

He is in GA and doing well.
This is the most dreadful of addictions.

I think GA for families would be great for your daughter.

This woman regrets she never went, the reality of other people's horror stories of wasted lives and misery might have saved her years.

There is NO peace living with a gambler.

Wishing you the very best.

This does not have to be the end of her life.

Staying with him will be nothing but misery.

One clarification with my story, the ex husband was a lovely man.
He was nothing but kind and loving to his wife BUT e put them into debt year after year.

It is no way to live.

And @Icecreamlover63 - can I just add that your DD has not only your immediate family as support, she has all of us on here too. WE know that she's doing the right thing - we have seen this sort of scenario all too often and we are Very Supportive of her leaving his sorry arse before she gets any further embroiled with him (e.g. by having kids with him).

You keep posting as much as you need to, lovely - you need the support as well so that you can continue to support her - but do let her know we're all behind her, rooting for her.

It’s a bit of a rubbish thing to do but can your DD not just report sick due to stress for her notice period. Then she wouldn’t have to go back.

His most recent actions - blowing up at your DIL and contacting all her friends and family in an underhand manipulative smear campaign is in my view (and I hope your DDs) the final nails in his coffin.

This is how coercively controlling and emotionally abusive he is.

He is emotionally incontinent.

She needs to feel strong and proud and think how she would feel if she got a similar call from a friend or family member - most of us would look at this a shocking, disrespectful, covertly bullying behaviour - we would not be interested in listening or being involved in such inappropriate nonsense. We would feel very concerned for the other party.

She has no shame or guilt or obligation to weigh her down - she should be confident that she is a person or integrity who has been stolen from, lied to, deceived and abused.

This latest shameful behaviour is all his.

Detach and block.

He is worse much than you thought. She could tell her work place, gym, friends and family that if X gets in touch they should respectfully not engage.

Anyone will see he is vile, unhinged, desperate and abusive.

She should consider sending him a single cease and desist instruction where any further communication to her, her family, friends and workplace will be reported to the police and military as stalking and harassment.

He needs his wings clipped.

Expect this to escalate.

He’s a nasty a bully. Pace yourselves and protect your DD.

He is out to punish her for this.

Know that. Get him on notice.

Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

100% NC is the only way forward. Any info or inch he will exploit and take a mile - as he did with your DIL.

See your sadness as grief for the person you thought he was and the future they should have had together if that’s who he was.

He wasn’t who he said he was.

He never was.

He never will be.

This is who he is - an abusive, emotionally violent, gaslighting, thieving, rage-full, lying, manipulative, nasty fucker as proven by his consistent repeated actions (ignore his words).

The addiction is probably the least of her worries. Some addicts are “nice” - as in calm etc - this bastard is first and foremost a thug.

@ESGdance

His most recent actions - blowing up at your DIL and contacting all her friends and family in an underhand manipulative smear campaign is in my view (and I hope your DDs) the final nails in his coffin.

This is how coercively controlling and emotionally abusive he is.

He is emotionally incontinent.

She needs to feel strong and proud and think how she would feel if she got a similar call from a friend or family member - most of us would look at this a shocking, disrespectful, covertly bullying behaviour - we would not be interested in listening or being involved in such inappropriate nonsense. We would feel very concerned for the other party.

She has no shame or guilt or obligation to weigh her down - she should be confident that she is a person or integrity who has been stolen from, lied to, deceived and abused.

This latest shameful behaviour is all his.

Detach and block.

He is worse much than you thought. She could tell her work place, gym, friends and family that if X gets in touch they should respectfully not engage.

Anyone will see he is vile, unhinged, desperate and abusive.

She should consider sending him a single cease and desist instruction where any further communication to her, her family, friends and workplace will be reported to the police and military as stalking and harassment.

He needs his wings clipped.

Expect this to escalate.

He’s a nasty a bully. Pace yourselves and protect your DD.

He is out to punish her for this.

Know that. Get him on notice.

Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

100% NC is the only way forward. Any info or inch he will exploit and take a mile - as he did with your DIL.

See your sadness as grief for the person you thought he was and the future they should have had together if that’s who he was.

He wasn’t who he said he was.

He never was.

He never will be.

This is who he is - an abusive, emotionally violent, gaslighting, thieving, rage-full, lying, manipulative, nasty fucker as proven by his consistent repeated actions (ignore his words).

The addiction is probably the least of her worries. Some addicts are “nice” - as in calm etc - this bastard is first and foremost a thug.

I couldn't agree more with every word.

Don't combine his abusive behaviour with his gambling.

They are mutually exclusive.

At his core he is an abusive bully, who also is a thieving gambler.

His approaching her friends with his sob story shows clearly how little he cares about her.

He is completely self absorbed.

The ex husband of my friends sister, never told a soul, took full responsibility for the marriage breakdown with his children and has only every praised his ex wife.

HE has taken responsibility.

They are very cordial and respectful towards each other.

Despite this, she still regrets her naivety 30 years ago in marrying him.

She thought through ignorance and youth that he could choose to stop and that she could fix him.

Under ANY circumstances I would advise anyone to run if they find out they are in a relationship with a gambler.

A truly awful life, living on your nerves.

I’m so sorry to put up another post but this site has been such a vessel of strength over the past few days you literally have no idea.
IceCream, you have nothing to apologise for & PLEASE keep posting.
Threads like your are MN at its best - women supporting each other through grief, women helping each other explode the bullshit they are being fed, women passing on their experience.

He has contacted all our friends and has said he intends to win my daughter back after four months and now she feels she will be coming home to a hostile environment or possibly a hostile environment.
This is classic abuser's behaviour, straight from The Script.
PP are right - he is looking to isolate DD.
He wants to shame her into doing what he wants.
he is out there, recruiting Flying Monkeys to his cause.
The 4 months thing is outrageous, & proves his toxicity. Nothing about what DD wants, no sign of remorse, compassion for her, & totally disrespecting DD's requirement for space. It is ALL ABOUT HIM & nothing about what he has done to her.

Couple it with whatever remark he made to her & you have all the hallmarks of an "Angry & Controlling Man" following The Script.
(she) has said she will no longer speak to him. As he turned an innocent remark into something it wasn’t
DD needs to be strong, consistent & resolved & stick to not speaking to him. I hope she has blocked him now.

You might want to get a copy of this - The Bible round these parts! - because YOU need extra support to, & Lundy Bancroft's book is informative, empathic to victims, accessible, & above all - will show you that ALL SiL's behaviour is predictable. As above - abusers follow a 'Script'. Information is power - get yourself informed.

www.amazon.co.uk/Why-Does-He-That-Controlling/dp/0425191656?tag=mumsnetforu03-21