Youngest Daughter in bits on phone - advice please

[Icecreamlover63]

My Youngest Daughter has just been on the phone and is extremely upset. I have seen this coming for some time but i cannot say anything about peoples relationships however i would appreciate some advice.
In 2019 my daughter was engaged and found out that her then fiancée had spent £3 on gambling in six months. He promised he would not do this again was so very repentant and she forgave hi.
In very early 2020 they got married. They moved into military housing about 8 miles away and appeared very happy.
Then they got transferred to Wiltshire and my daughter got a job at a local hospital and promptly made lots of friends and loved her new job. She joined a gym and lost some weight and was looking amazing.
Her husband's, Mother came over in October 2021 and was furious as she had just had a phone call completely out of the blue. It was the bank informing her that her sons account was overdrawn by £600. (when her son went to Afghanistan she had to have access to his accounts in case he died) and she had forgotten all about it.
The account was overdrawn because of 2 large bets of £500 each.
My daughter again lost her temper and he promised never to do it again.
Just before Christmas he took £500 out of their joint account to pay his friend as apparently he had bailiffs at the door. Then he took another £250 out a one of his friends could not see his children. My daughter said can you give those two friends the account number for our joint account so they can pay it back into the account it came out of. Guess what he said he wouldn't and said they money was going back into his sole account.
He has not spoken to my daughter most evenings and only watches football on sky. He refuses to go out at all in January and has ben very rude to her on lots of occasions.
Basically she has had enough of the gambling and the lies and just basically being ignored.

Fast forward to today!! She has just gone back to collect some of her bits and he started screaming at her and saying she was sneaky moving half of the money into her savings account before she had even spoken to him. She moved it this morning as she did not want him to be reckless and bet it away. He then started to blame her for having mental health problems and that when she was at home she was unhappy (not true) and that he had to speak to welfare in the Army to get married quarters early. They got their married quarters 3 weeks before they got married (which is the normal time line).
He has told her she always runs back to London when she is upset. Again not true she has been to us 4 times in 4 months and two of those times he was with her.

She is so upset and so distraught I honestly don't know what to do and she is driving back home now. I wish i could say she was right but I feel it would be wrong for me to say so. Please can you advise me what to do and also if you think she has made the right decision.
I do understand there is 2 sides to the story but my daughter has moved half way across the country and has not lied, she is devestated.

She is staying at her sisters this weekend. He is away for two days next week then she is at my house next weekend. She is not telling him the date she is leaving. We are taking everything out whilst he is at work and then she has gone. My brother is helping and that’s it. You know I look at photos of the lad I first met and he was a completely different person and that is the saddest thing. I know you find it hard to believe and I haven’t gone daft but this addiction is like a monster in his head and it has turned him into a completely different person.
My Daughter is adamant and she will come out of this a stronger person of that I’m sure. No one will ever trample on her. I am going to book a holiday for us and I can’t wait to have some sunshine ☀️

Sounds like a good plan. I hope that it all goes smoothly and she doesn't have to suffer any further indignities from her soon-to-be-ex.

We know you're not daft - but I don't think that you can blame it all on the addiction either. You may not know any abusive types, but it's absolutely CLASSIC that they come across as lovely and charming initially, because how else would they suck people into their lives? They keep up the charming and lovely mask until they have their "prey" (sounds harsh but is often true) well within their clutches, and then THAT is when the mask starts to slip.

We don't know your son in law, obvs - but we do know, collectively, a lot about how abusive relationships start out.

The holiday sounds like a lovely plan!

@ThumbWitchesAbroad

Sounds like a good plan. I hope that it all goes smoothly and she doesn't have to suffer any further indignities from her soon-to-be-ex.

We know you're not daft - but I don't think that you can blame it all on the addiction either. You may not know any abusive types, but it's absolutely CLASSIC that they come across as lovely and charming initially, because how else would they suck people into their lives? They keep up the charming and lovely mask until they have their "prey" (sounds harsh but is often true) well within their clutches, and then THAT is when the mask starts to slip.

We don't know your son in law, obvs - but we do know, collectively, a lot about how abusive relationships start out.

The holiday sounds like a lovely plan!

Quick question - do you think he would have had a plan for all of this. Or does it evolve? Or is it natural? Your right I’ve never experienced this before but I’m at my mums and looking at my daughters graduation photo and he was lovely then I look at her wedding photo and honestly it like I’m looking at a different person! I think my daughter has changed too she is more confident (believe it or not) she has furthered her career. But she is very kind and caring so essentially the same girl.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/2268977-The-Abuser-Profiles

Ask you DD to have a read of these profiles to see if he is anyone type or a mix or traits across the range. It might help her to see that he is just a cliched abuser with the added complication of an addiction on top.

I am quite concerned for her physical safety - leaving is when women are most at risk. I think you are right to just move her stuff one day when he is at work. She could throw him a bone in the weeks in between to say she needs her space to decide next steps - just to allow her to get out the door and not rile him.

No doubt loads more secrets and lies will be revealed once your DD feels supported in opening up.

@ThumbWitchesAbroad

Sounds like a good plan. I hope that it all goes smoothly and she doesn't have to suffer any further indignities from her soon-to-be-ex.

We know you're not daft - but I don't think that you can blame it all on the addiction either. You may not know any abusive types, but it's absolutely CLASSIC that they come across as lovely and charming initially, because how else would they suck people into their lives? They keep up the charming and lovely mask until they have their "prey" (sounds harsh but is often true) well within their clutches, and then THAT is when the mask starts to slip.

We don't know your son in law, obvs - but we do know, collectively, a lot about how abusive relationships start out.

The holiday sounds like a lovely plan!

I so agree with this.

How can this man have been so genuinely lovely?

To go from genuinely lovely to abusing his wife to such an extent that she is sending him videos of her cleaning?

Kindly OP, there is a disconnect in what you have written.

No decent man terrorises his wife to such an extent that she is sending him cleaning videos.

This is not connected with gambling.

This is connected with him being an abusive man who had maintained a facade until he was married.

This is NOT unusual with abusive men.

The lovely lad NEVER existed OP, and the sooner you and your husband accept that reality the better it will be for your daughter.

The Freedom programme might be a good idea for your daughter.

The fact that she sent him videos tells me her boundaries were skewed in the relationship.

That didn't happen overnight.
The boiling frog analogy probably applies here.
Slowly over time be became more and more unpleasant.

Also not all gamblers are thieves.

Not all gamblers fake break ins.
Not all gamblers copy people's credit cards and use them fraudulently.

This is all stuff that HE chose to do.

The holidays sound lovely.

Quick question - do you think he would have had a plan for all of this. Or does it evolve? Or is it natural?

The answer is YES ... to all of it!
I mean, abusers don't sit down with a meticulous plan & check progress against a Machiavellian spreadsheet. Unless they are Hannibal Lecter & his real-life ilk.

It's a mix of desperation, lack of genuine self-awareness, personality-disordered thinking, & yes, a LOT of it is unconscious.

It's natural to wonder "how did this happen & how much was deliberate" as we are human & we want to assign blame/compassion/fixing/anger/understanding/whatever in what WE believe are the deserved measures.

But it's a bit too complicated to be able to do that.
Have a google of Stockholm Syndrome, & about the Taiwanese POW camps where what - essentially - is the 'cycle of abuse' & coercive control tactics, sadly, that the human species has an innate talent for, was studied, developed, & militarised.
When American troops arrived to liberate their compatriots, a small handful, looking slightly better fed & dressed than the majority, waved cheerfully, about-faced, & marched back to join their 'captors', ie new friends.
This is where the term "brainwashing" emerged: obviously the US military were hugely interested in this 'new science', & adopted the method & terminology of their own.

So ... take an interest in the how/why/where abuse comes from, & how "guilty" a perpetrator should be held to be, but don't fall too far down that rabbit hole!

Oops IceCream - tell google it's Korea & China, not Taiwan. Tired, sorry!

I think most abusers have an 'predator' mindset. It isn't a conscious "I want a victim, I will find one", they only know they want a 'need' fulfilled. That their 'need' involves abusing another person doesn't really figure in the equation. The satisfaction they derive from it is the fulfillment. Pretty sick.

A predator doesn't have a conscious "I am going to go out and kill prey today". Their minds are more "I have a need (food) and I am going to fulfill it (kill)". It doesn't occur to them that fulfilling that need means killing an innocent animal. They just know they are hungry. I hope that makes sense.

I found out that my DP was gambling while lying his bank account had been hacked so all the rent and bills went in my name which as I was a disabled student led to many thousands on credit cards and loans. I was also on a lot of medication and it was only when the dose was reduced that I realised things weren’t adding up. He lied for three years and left me on the edge of bankruptcy. When I found out I was devastated but he promised to get help and I agreed to stay with him and support him. He went to GA and I went to GAManon. The difference to your story is that my DH has never gambled since and it’s been over 15 years - no lottery tickets, fruit machines or even raffles for charity. He handed over full control of his finances for the first three years including his wages paid into my bank account. He was willing to do whatever it took to keep me - not the second or third time he was caught but the very first. He was so shocked that I would consider standing by him that he’s tried to repay that faith every year since. He knows if he did it again I would leave and he’d lose me and the children.

@Icecreamlover63 - I wouldn't say a plan, exactly, more it's an innate thing, like the previous posters are describing.

They find someone they want, they play nice to get, and then they work to keep by undermining any attempt to leave, and any outside support that would help that happen. Your SonIL seems to still be in fairly early stages - hasn't yet managed to completely separate your DD from her friends and family - but that does evolve as the abuser realises that these people could encourage her away from him.

Abusers almost never go from 0-100 - again, as mentioned, it's like the boiling frog thing - they turn the heat up slowly, seeing what their "captive" will accept, occasionally backing off when they show signs of escape - but when the "captive" accepts them back, then they take that as permission to ramp it up again.
Or you could think of it like reeling a fish in - you let the fish run for a bit to tire it, then reel it in a bit further. Or a cat with a mouse - the cat will let mousey run for a bit then pounce and catch again. There is no escape for the properly-hooked fish or the mouse, usually (occasionally they break free though!) but they have moments of thinking that they can get away before being caught again.

I'm glad your DD feels stronger in herself - I think that's because this is still fairly early stages - and if she breaks free now she'll be fine. If she stays though, you can expect the abuse levels to ramp up, because she's signalled that she's prepared to accept it. :(

Billy1996. You have hit the nail on the head. The vast majority of the lies and gambling and nastiness happened when they were married and certainly when they moved away.
I think me and my husband are finding the change had to accept because we have never gone across it before. I know as people we all evolve but this has been like someone switched a light on!!
I’m certain over the next few weeks more unfortunate incidents will come out. Like the credit card photocopy, which is illegal.

None of those incidents are rational, normal behaviour and I completely agree some of them may have happened due to the compulsive gambling others did not.
They were nasty and sadly I know that even if SIL overcomes his addiction the nastiness will manifest itself in every relationship.
He will almost certainly end up like his father a very lonely man with a string of failed relationships.

He will almost certainly end up like his father a very lonely man with a string of failed relationships.

Bit rich of his DM then to beg your DD to endure an abusive marriage when she didn’t.

Also interested in his relationship history before he met your DD. Possibly a series of relationships until he learned to fake love bombing which he held off until he had her tied down.

I am sure you are reverberating and shocked because your and your DH have also been groomed by this character. But you know what he is now - know that all that whirlwind charm was a manipulative mask.

You WILL get there OP.
Just reading through your posts you ARE getting there, and the scales are falling.

The more YOU educate yourself, the more you will be able to help your daughter see the complete unacceptability of HIS behaviour and why she accepted it.

She CAN learn so much about herself from this.

She will probably start retelling many little stories going forward.

Asking her how she felt at the time?
Did it feel off?
Why does she think she didn't trust herself if she thought it was off?
What she thinks she would do differently?

Having those conversations can help her to go to a place where she can reflect and have some lightbulb moments.

Simply telling her you are so sorry she had to go through that, calmly, will help her feel comfortable telling you the really bad stuff.

Helping her to figure out that whilst this is ALL on him, it is a great opportunity to learn from it and to be stronger.

I do think a good therapist would be great as it will give a safe space too.

She is SO lucky to be getting away from him.

His mother is some piece of work.
She doesn't give a damn about your daughter.
She just doesn't want this loser back on her doorstep.

One thing that does strike me though is just how ignorant the general population is about gambling.

I definitely was.
When I was told the story about my friends BIL a decade ago, my jaw was on the floor, literally.
The money involved.
The misery her sister had gone through for so many years.
Her regrets.
Her kids grief at it all even though they were very early 20's.
The multiple credit cards.
The debt.
The house having to be sold.

It really was a whole world I had never come across.

The shocking thing is, it is EVERYWHERE.
You just don't know it, because you can't see it.

It’s not just the gambling though is it? The criminality/ illegal/ fraudulent actions. The bullying/ abusive behaviour - my blood boils thinking about the idea of any daughter of mine being told to send a video to prove she had cleaned the bathroom. Oh and a lack of emotional and physical connection too. It strikes me that any one of those puts a marriage in enormous trouble - but all of them?? No way. It’s amazing your daughter has put up with it for so long. She has been underreacting for some time.

She needs to get rid get her back home and divorce him
He'll never change

It’s really important that she learns about the pattern of abusive relationships because otherwise she will spend her life trying to reconnect and re create the early love bombing / swept of feet stage - because that was real and very intense for her and she will be hurting, pining and yearning to turn back the clock to those days. It seems you have all been caught up in their magical “love story”

She needs to know that was a classic abuser tactic and wasn’t real for him. She was duped. This is the real him - don’t let her think because he is an addict he is abusing her and that when / is he sorts his addiction Mr Nice Guy will re-emerge.

He wasn’t there to start with.

There are so many areas of this relationship that she is at best dissatisfied and disappointed with and yet others she is horrified with and terrorised by - and it’s the fake love bombing that has kept her trapped as she is desperate for just a little bit of that and he can give her crumbs every now and then or upscale it to grand gestures if needed (for him) like now when he is desperate. But it’s just to get her back within emotional punching distance. He is so dysfunctional and emotionally dysregulated - impulsive and compulsive that he needs to discharge and project his ugly negativity outwards on to her.

He needs to put her down to keep his own fragile ego afloat.

I totally agree that it is not just the gambling but a whole pattern of bullying and abuse as well.

I am really concerned that you say that your SIL is a serving soldier. The most dangerous time for an abusive relationship is when the abused party leaves. Has your daughter spoken to the Welfare Officer? Gambling is a big issue for the Military as it makes you vulnerable to blackmail also given his current stresses and MH issues he should not be around weapons.

@Lunde

I totally agree that it is not just the gambling but a whole pattern of bullying and abuse as well.

I am really concerned that you say that your SIL is a serving soldier. The most dangerous time for an abusive relationship is when the abused party leaves. Has your daughter spoken to the Welfare Officer? Gambling is a big issue for the Military as it makes you vulnerable to blackmail also given his current stresses and MH issues he should not be around weapons.

He is now texting her saying she should at least try one more time to save the marriage. She is in tears and has told him he had ampule opportunities to change but he didn’t.
I’m so fed up I really am. So much of this is just bloody rubbish and it’s nasty so much of this is horrible. He snapped his ACL on lived at my house for 6 months neither him or any of his family even sent a card thanking me and my husband let some a bunch of flowers! She has Stood by him for two lots of gambling over £10000 spent and also his leg and operation. She moved over half way across the country gave up her home her job her friends for him and this is how he repaid her!

You, DD & your whole family have every right to feel angry about this latest shot of manipulation, refusal to allow DD the space he agreed, & total lack of respect for her choices or feelings.

IceCream, it's time to call the Welfare Officer.
Can DD maybe do that from your home, so you are all in it together?

See @Lunde's post.
He is escalating now.
He will be angry at what he will perceive as DD's non-compliance.
If this is allowed to continue in secrecy, real damage could get done. Whether that is to DD's emotional detriment, or something even less fixable down the line is not the point.
The point is, you are more likely to prevent harm & escalation by shining a light on the truth of what is happening. By getting access to professional services via, or in tandem with, the military Offices.

Apologies that this will have been alarming to read. I am not looking to be 'alarmist' or ramp up drama. Your best bet for safety & genuine management of this problem is by bringing in the cavalry now. Pun intended.
If the situation remains a skeleton in the family closet, THAT is how the alarm & drama will ramp up. Because SiL will be operating under the blanket cover of lies & secret-keeping. He will be presenting as a husband whose wife is being mean to him. He will not take responsibility. He will not leave her alone to recover.

It will be hard for DD. She may feel that she is betraying her marriage, or her H. I am sure he will feel that she is a grass, I am sure he will present her as a villain & himself as the victim.

But your whole family knows that is not true. Get the truth out there.
It will also be a huge help, psychologically, to DD & all of you to work within the structure that a Welfare Officer will implement. You need procedures, you need to know you are ticking off all the right boxes.

Your approach to it need only be "this lad needs help, & my daughter needs protection."

This post was horrible to write OP, it must be ghastly to absorb.
Please have some tea, small glass of alcohol, a short walk, or any soothing treat you need right now.
Take time, go slow with yourself, ask DH for a huge hug.

@Icecreamlover63

I think it's time your DD stopped 'actively' engaging with him. The time for trying to make him understand what he's done is long gone. If he brings up 'try again' or anything indicating they have a future she needs to either not reply at all or just say "You must give me some time to think quietly about what you've just said" and if he continues say "I've told you I'll think about it, please don't push me". Yes, I realize that 'technically' she's lying to him because her mind is made up and she's not going to 'think about it', but now is the time for her to concentrate on self-preservation, not 'being nice' or 'being fair'. He certainly hasn't been very nice nor fair to her.

At any rate, under no circumstances should she give him 'ammo' by telling him her thoughts or reasons. He's trying to get her to do so for the specific reason of 'hammering' at her and to 'shoot down' all her reasons why for her it's over. He thinks if he keeps talking 'at' her long enough and rationalizing away her valid reasons, he'll wear her down and she'll stay out of sheer emotional exhaustion. She doesn't need this extra stress on her already bruised heart and a head that's probably already all over the place.

Nothing to worry add except to say good wishes to you and your dd. When your kids hurt then you hurt too.

It is dreadful to see them treated badly. You have been wonderful and all you can do is to continue to support your dd.
Be kind to yourself and get plenty of rest .

Addiction is a dire problem, those with it must want to change and make every attempt to do so.
Lies is part of the parcel with it sadly as is trying to blame the other person.

Hopefully your dd will come through this a much stronger person.

I only wish I could be helpful, but wishing you both well.

Everyone here needs more actions and less (zero) words.

Your DD needs to stop talking to him and take the action she wants - take the space, block his calls. She has a choice to engage or not. As PP is saying he is just terrorising her to goad her verbally and anything she says he will weaponise and use her words as bullets to shoot her with.

She doesn’t need to engage in his histrionics - she needs to calmly shut down. She needs to give him one last warning with a consequence that if he doesn’t stop contacting her she will consider it harassment and contact the police or military. She should make this known to his family and her friends.

I also agree that you all need to block him and report him to the military.

They need telling what is going on and she needs protecting.

He is well use to bullyibg and controlling her, he's not going to like her asserting herself.

Keeping his gambling a secret is NOT in her best interests.

The military authorities need to be told.

Hold on to the anger.

Both him and his family sound so rude and entitled.

You are all so well rid of them.

Definitely block.

Everyone is right, so right.
She must stop engaging with him - but he will realise that he's losing his grip on her, and this does, sadly, put her in some danger.

She or you MUST contact the welfare officer to let them know what is happening. It's for her own safety, but also for his protection too.

Thank Christ you seem to have found your anger at lay. Agree with all the others here.
Especially @ChargingBuck

He is abusive and he is escalating.
Do not be fooled and do not be blind to it
this is a very dangerous time

I would be 100% focused on getting my daughter out of this situation.
I would not be chatting with the in-laws and I’d be telling her to burn his wretched birthday card.. never mind go and visit for the weekend.