Youngest Daughter in bits on phone - advice please

[Icecreamlover63]

My Youngest Daughter has just been on the phone and is extremely upset. I have seen this coming for some time but i cannot say anything about peoples relationships however i would appreciate some advice.
In 2019 my daughter was engaged and found out that her then fiancée had spent £3 on gambling in six months. He promised he would not do this again was so very repentant and she forgave hi.
In very early 2020 they got married. They moved into military housing about 8 miles away and appeared very happy.
Then they got transferred to Wiltshire and my daughter got a job at a local hospital and promptly made lots of friends and loved her new job. She joined a gym and lost some weight and was looking amazing.
Her husband's, Mother came over in October 2021 and was furious as she had just had a phone call completely out of the blue. It was the bank informing her that her sons account was overdrawn by £600. (when her son went to Afghanistan she had to have access to his accounts in case he died) and she had forgotten all about it.
The account was overdrawn because of 2 large bets of £500 each.
My daughter again lost her temper and he promised never to do it again.
Just before Christmas he took £500 out of their joint account to pay his friend as apparently he had bailiffs at the door. Then he took another £250 out a one of his friends could not see his children. My daughter said can you give those two friends the account number for our joint account so they can pay it back into the account it came out of. Guess what he said he wouldn't and said they money was going back into his sole account.
He has not spoken to my daughter most evenings and only watches football on sky. He refuses to go out at all in January and has ben very rude to her on lots of occasions.
Basically she has had enough of the gambling and the lies and just basically being ignored.

Fast forward to today!! She has just gone back to collect some of her bits and he started screaming at her and saying she was sneaky moving half of the money into her savings account before she had even spoken to him. She moved it this morning as she did not want him to be reckless and bet it away. He then started to blame her for having mental health problems and that when she was at home she was unhappy (not true) and that he had to speak to welfare in the Army to get married quarters early. They got their married quarters 3 weeks before they got married (which is the normal time line).
He has told her she always runs back to London when she is upset. Again not true she has been to us 4 times in 4 months and two of those times he was with her.

She is so upset and so distraught I honestly don't know what to do and she is driving back home now. I wish i could say she was right but I feel it would be wrong for me to say so. Please can you advise me what to do and also if you think she has made the right decision.
I do understand there is 2 sides to the story but my daughter has moved half way across the country and has not lied, she is devestated.

You need to support your daughter. It sounds like there is a huge amount of pressure on her to stay with him. Saying that his mother should talk to your daughter just adds another bit - his mum can ring her and say "your mother said I should talk to her".
Much better to tell his mother, if you need to talk to her at all, that the best way to save his marriage is to give your daughter space and time to get away and clear her head, and to demonstrate with his actions that he is trustworthy.
That gives your daughter the chance to escape from an abusive relationship.
You don't need to be fair to his mother, you need to back up your daughter, just like she is supporting her sone

@MotherofTerriers

You need to support your daughter. It sounds like there is a huge amount of pressure on her to stay with him. Saying that his mother should talk to your daughter just adds another bit - his mum can ring her and say "your mother said I should talk to her". Much better to tell his mother, if you need to talk to her at all, that the best way to save his marriage is to give your daughter space and time to get away and clear her head, and to demonstrate with his actions that he is trustworthy. That gives your daughter the chance to escape from an abusive relationship. You don't need to be fair to his mother, you need to back up your daughter, just like she is supporting her sone

I’m supporting my Daughter but his mum really needs to keep out of it. I wouldn’t dream of ringing SIL

Well his mum phoned me again yesterday and said he is doing everything right he is going to GA he is seeing a counselling service with the army. What more can he do to help save his marriage.
I wasn’t rude I just pointed out that I’m not married to her son but my daughter is and maybe she should have this conversation with her.
IceCream, you & DD are the ones living & managing this situation, & I don't want to make you feel hectored. But can you see, from this phone call, why so many PP have advised that you BLOCK the inlaws on your phone?
& maybe wonder how healthy it was for you to direct MiL's call to DD?
DD doesn't need this pressure & emotional blackmail!
I'm not scolding you, & if it is coming over that way I sincerely apologise because your poor feelings do not need further wounding right now.
It's way easier from the outside, or with hindsight of similar situations, & we all muddle through the best we can with what we know, But so many PP have advised against this ... because they do have experience of your situation.

I totally understand she needs to talk I do too, but I think she is sad, angry all in one and at the end of the day he is her son. She said he had laid his soul bare and it’s the mark of a man and could my daughter at least talk to him on Monday. She sounded pretty desperate to be fair.
And can you now see that THIS is why DD should have already blocked her inlaws, & be blocking her DH at least temporarily?

fully appreciate there are two side to very story
Not always.
Unless someone is trying to make you & DD feel that in some miraculous feat of mind control, she MADE him gamble, lie ...
there are so many things I have felt uneasy about for the last two years ...& emotionally abuse & coercively control his wife?

how I wish I’d spoken up earlier how I wish I could get my husband to see what I saw my husband always had an excuse for him!
Small wonder that DD seems to feel she "owes" her H airtime then, is it? When her own dad has been - no matter how unconsciously - promoting the notion that she should Stand By Her Man because None Of It's His Fault?

My eldest daughter said she does want to be with him it’s as simple as that! I agree with her
It's really, really, not that simple.
DD doesn't want all the things you wrote in your bullet points at the end of your latest update..
Those things ARE your SiL. WE ARE NOT OUR WORDS, WE ARE OUR ACTIONS.
DD wants what we all want - the partner she fell in love with, the man she thought he was.
That man - if he ever existed - has either changed unrecognisably, or was never there in the first place.
DD will not get that man back by returning to this one. Or by complying with phone calls & manipulation from him or his parents.
He will not cease being a gambler, a liar, or abusive by her sacrificing her own chance at happiness or her own freedom on the altar of Trying To Fix Him.

There is only ONE person who can find out if the man DD fell in love with is real, & can emerge or re-emerge, & that is the man himself.
It will take years.
It will fail if he chooses co-dependence, or excuses, or blame, or using other people as props.

The only way he can fix himself is to take total responsibility - & that mean actions not words. Especially not his too easy, too glib words. Why are you or DD accepting the words of an accomplished & long-term liar?

Back to your bullets points, as your post above:
I said to my eldest daughter the thing is - how do you believe a liar.
Quite. & I'm sure you'll be saying this to DD too.
The fake break in
The friend who needed £500 and isn’t paying it back into their joint account
The man who has spent £4000 since July in bets
The man who spent £3000 in bets in 2019
The man who told her he stopped betting but used cash instead of a card
Don't forget -
The man who deliberately, with malice aforethought, abandoned DD at an unknown location, without the means to find transport home.
The man who asked DD to conspire to commit a housing fraud which he knows his military employer take a very dim view of, & who would crack down with penalties to her as well as their employee if discovered.
The man who swore he would be 'respectful' & give her space, while simultaneously demanding persistent phone calls & an expectation of being allowed to spend weekends with her.
The man who screamed in her face.
The man who has so many instances of things I have felt uneasy about for the last two years that DD has been dealing with, forgiving, attempting to navigate past, only to have yet another incident.

I fully expect on Monday he will be full of what people at home think of her.
Apologies IceCream, because I am going to say it again:
Can you now see that THIS is why DD should have already blocked her inlaws, & be blocking her DH at least temporarily
WhyTF is she going to be hearing ANYTHING from this man on Monday?
Is she still cohabiting with him in their married quarters?
Why? - because it's easier for him? - because it's easier than moving out & being pressured to fraudulently claim she's still there? - because she feels sorry for him, guilty about wanting to put on her own oxygen mask before attending to his, which he has deliberately torn off?
I hope I have this wrong, & that she is housed elsewhere currently - but even so, & it's "just" a phone call, this is a bad, BAD idea.

I am so sorry for the maelstrom of second-guessing & overthinking you are bound to be experiencing now. But also concerned that DD seemed to see the logic & reasoning for staying - at least temporarily - with her friend while she sorts out the notice period, but now appears to be under constant exposure to her H's problems & wishes, instead of having some absolutely reasonable "time out" to work on her own problems & wishes.

She should not be manipulated into viewing her abuser as a victim here, & therefore putting his 'needs' (ie wants, excuses, desire for control over her) above her own.

I’m supporting my Daughter but his mum really needs to keep out of it. I wouldn’t dream of ringing SIL

I know my dear, & you are right.
Unfortunately, the only way to keep MiL out of it is to realise that this is down to your own agency, not hers, & BLOCK her.

And, to boringly bang this drum again - that goes for DD too - block MiL, FiL & H.

It is only the FOG that is making her feel she 'ought' to respond to their batshit phone calls & mindfuckery.
outofthefog.website/toolbox-1/2015/11/17/fog-fear-obligation-guilt

She said he had laid his soul bare and it’s the mark of a man and could my daughter at least talk to him on Monday.

Oh gag me with a spoon & pass the sick bucket.
What a trumped up load of melodramatic codswallop.

Do you reckon all this noble, manly soul-baring included a full list of his actual transgression (yeah, we’re back to your bullet points), as opposed to his little list of all the ways it wasn’t his fault really, & anyway, he’s going to “Be Cured In Four Months so stop hassling me, also do you have £30 mummy, as I’m a bit inexplicably skint” …?

This has been going on for years.
Some engineered, performative bleating is NOT the quick fix his flying monkey mother so desperately pretends it is.
The only fix is years of therapy, unwavering commitment, & full responsibility.
Your SiL & his mother reckon that “responsibility” entails saying some words, & hoping everyone, including themselves, are convinced by them.
That is an absurd example of magical thinking.
It’s from the same school of intellectual rigour as touching wood for superstition, or saying a nervous, hopeful “good boy!” to a dog you already know is preparing to be anything but …
We all do it, it’s very human, but you cannot afford to buy into this nonsense when your DD’s entire world is at stake.

I’m going to translate MiL’s batshit sentence for you now because I hope DD will see it:
She said he had laid his soul bare and it’s the mark of a man and could my daughter at least talk to him on Monday.
”I’ve been covering this up for more years than I can admit, & am exhausted & at the end of my tether. I cannot take any more, & I especially cannot take the social stigma of any of this coming out. The best outcome for ME is to pretend I’m not my son’s enabler by pushing my family's co-dependency onto my DiL. Then we can all pretend it’s hunky dory, we can pretend that my son will be Fixed In Four Months, & when he isn’t … well, at least it’s no longer me being first in the line of fire, that will be his wife.”

As @MotherofTerriers observed – DD’s primary need right now is enough space & time to clear her head, & decide what she, not her inlaws, wants.
This family is actively colluding to ensure she does not get it.
She is allowed to feel angry about that. She is allowed space & time. She does not need to kowtow to their FOG.

@ChargingBuck, every single word.

He's a bully with an agenda, get her back and carry on gambling.

Yes carry on gambling.
He wants this fixed so he can carry on.

His mother just wants it fixed and off her back.

She is a flying monkey that you have directed to bully and harangue your poor daughter.

Did you mention him abandoning her?

I would have told his mother what a Class A scum her son was to abandon MY daughter and not to call me again about her son and his thieving lying.

Your husband sounds like a real piece of work excusing this thieving gambling fraudster.

Your poor daughter with him as a father.
My husband would be apoplectic at the idea of either of our daughters being mistreated.
Defending him?
Jesus Christ.

OP, you are all your daughter has.
If she goes back to him and allows herself to be bullied into in, this situation is going be her life on a loop until she accidentally gets pregnant and she is absolutely screwed.

Block all their numbers.
Advise your daughter to do the same.

Tell your daughter to tell work she is in a domestic abuse situation and needs to leave for her safety.
Because she really needs to be gone.

Also reign in your husband and tell him he has done enough damage.
Twat.

Keep going OP, spell it out to her.

He is scum, he always was scum, and he always will be.

Theft, fake break ins, fraud?

Is this really what she was reared to marry into?

Don't hold back.

He's an addict that is committing crimes to get his fix.

What a life he has dragged your daughter down to.

She still has a choice to get away now, she may not always.

Selfishly, in saving her you are saving yourself.
I wouldn't wish this grief and stress on any parent.

Thank you Billy, & also - IceCream, please take your own sweet time & do not feel you have to respond to me. This is an intense situation & YOU need time to process it as well.

I sincerely hope you do not feel harangued by how ... invested I & some PP are ... some of us can barely help ourselves, as we've been where DD is & know how nigh-impossible it is for even an honest, non-manipulative gambler to quit his behaviours & manage his addiction.
But your SiL is still being both dishonest & manipulative.

DD should not need her focus on how he is doing, his hotshot bullshit imposition of his ridiculous 4 month timescale, or his needs. (Note also how he demands that because he will of course be FIXED in 4 months, everyone needs to take heed - while signally failing to take any heed whatsoever of DD's requirement for her own timescale, of a few weeks No Contact).
She does not need to hear it.
Her focus needs to be on herself, & on gaining several weeks strict No Contact.
How else is she going to be able to make her own decisions, without fear or favour?

I will shut up now

oh! - will shut up now except for this link -
which I forgot to attach but hope is a useful resource for any PP affected by the issue

In fact, gambling addiction, like all addictions, is considered a family disease/disorder. What happens when one individual in the family is addicted impacts all members of the family.
www.beforeyoubet.org/10-common-lies-compulsive-gamblers-tell/

My husband is a kind man who always wants to believe the best in everyone. He hates confrontation. I wished he had listened to me. This whole episode has been upsetting and sad I feel drained.

I’m going to block his mums number as I think whilst she is ringing me she feels there is a connection.
I’ve seen now first hand how an addiction can change someone and it’s vile! I would not wish that on anyone. Absolutely anyone.
I agree regarding his mother I have always felt out of sight out of mind. I think she thought their future was sewn up and they were blissfully happy. I really do. You know as a parent all you want is your children how ever old they are is to be happy and knowing that isn’t the case for how ever long that period might be is just not a nice place to find yourself in.
I want my daughter to be happy I want her to be with a man that loves her and put her first and not the betting slip. I want her to have a man that wants to take her out and doesn’t want to sit in all the time because he can’t afford to take her out because he has blown it on the 3:10 at Kempton!
I want to believe that my SIL is the nice naïve lad my daughter brought home but then reality kicks in and I think of how he has been and what he has become. Many people would say she should have given it a chance- I know they will. However his mum, stepdad and daughter sat down with him in October and pleaded with him to stop and if anything it got worse. Her best friend told me there have been lots of chances.

[quote ChargingBuck]oh! - will shut up now except for this link -
which I forgot to attach but hope is a useful resource for any PP affected by the issue

In fact, gambling addiction, like all addictions, is considered a family disease/disorder. What happens when one individual in the family is addicted impacts all members of the family.
www.beforeyoubet.org/10-common-lies-compulsive-gamblers-tell/[/quote]
Please don’t shut up 🤐 I have just read the link and my goodness all of it is true. Every single one of them.

He has just phoned my husband and asked about the insurance on his car. We have a multicar policy and he is coming off it. My husband is the main policy holder so this call has to happen.
It was surprising actually he said no one will be criticising my daughter whilst he is back at home he takes full responsibility! My husband said ‘do you still want to win her back’ and he replied yes. My husband said you must not associate your recovery with this dream. You have to go away and stop gambling you have to prove to yourself and no one else that you can do it or you will fail and start gambling again.
I’m so sad other people have experienced this situation however I am very grateful for their views and help but it seems a shame you have to go through this to find out!

Please don’t shut up

Thank you very much OP.
Am so pleased the article was illuminating & helpful.
May I ask ... is DD reading the thread still, or are you able to send her the article? - Obviously, at a time when she has leisure to process it & maybe call her mum ...

I suspect she may find a lot of "aha!" & "OMG!" moments in at, but also the comfort of some solidarity, informed facts, & a kind of 'redemption' for her feelings of being pressured to take an active role in SiL's recovery process.
Or any role AT ALL with him - for the next 6 weeks.

DD, if you are reading this - we're all batting for you & this is NOT your fault, responsibility to fix, or mess to take on.
You did not cause it, you cannot control it, & you cannot cure it.

OP,

Your daughter deserves every single one of those dreams you have.
They are the dreams of every mother.

But the chances of those wishes being realised with a gambler are slim to none IMO.

In fact if he was serious about recovery, it really is several years at least.

In house has greater success but still recovery is very elusive.

Attending GA would give her the harsh reality of trying to get clean.

Again, does your daughter realise that she will be committing years of her life on the off chance he might get clean?

The odds are so poor that he will.

She will hardly want to risk buying a house and planning a family with someone so unreliable.

If he is serious about recovery he will need to focus on that completely, he will have no time for the stress of marriage and a family.

When my friends former BIL went into treatment for 6 weeks, (paid for by his excellent private insurance) and began a long road which left her to deal with their children, thankfully young adults finishing University.

SHE sold the house and sorted EVERYTHING.
He was in recovery and stress is a NoNo!

Her stress levels were through the roof, combined with her huge anger at having to sell the lovely home she had worked so hard to keep.

Her Ex was about 2 years going through recovery.
Constant meetings which he still attends.
You are NEVER cured.

My point of the above is to try and drive home that she will be gambling her future completely on the off chance that he will get through recovery.

I don't think he has hit rock bottom to really commit to it.

Rock bottom is loosing your wife, your home, your children's respect.
Facing the fury of your wife and the terrible upset and confusion of your children, who can't believe that their home has to be sold.

That is fairly rock bottom.

You owe him and his family nothing.
Your priority is your health and your daughter.

Don't try and be fair, he isn't owed it.

Your daughter however IS owed unflinching honesty at what could be her future if she doesn't place sufficient value on her life and her future.

I really wish you the very best and hope you have good friends to rage at.

I have only used this forum at the moment because I just needed to process the whole sorry situation. Her employer has told her she can leave in 3 weeks he needs job I set up and she is starting her after a couple of days off.
I don’t think he has hit rock bottom yet because she is still in the house. But when she goes he will hit rock bottom.
She told me today that he photographed her credit card and bought three football tickets with it. They were staying at his cousins house and he went absolutely mad when he found out. He had a right go at SIL and told my DD to look after herself- this was about 18 months ago!
But she is strong and his birthday is the week after she leaves and she is not even going to get him a card. He is going back home for his birthday week and he will be with his family so his mind will be occupied but in that Sunday he will be returning to an empty house that was once a home. She will be in Dubai with her three best friends !
Lots of you will find this strange but I feel so sorry that his mind has been taken over by an addiction and that he has a long lonely route to climb. But my priority is my daughter and her happiness. I am going to try my upmost for her and I hope I will be enough.
You are all bloody amazing just amazing and I simply can’t begin to thank you x

Oh dear - his mother is trying very hard to avoid her son hitting any sort of bottom - but it is the wrong thing to do.

He HAS to experience the awfulness of realising that he's lost everything, actually thrown it away due to his addiction - before it will give him the true impetus to change.

And having your DD as a "prize" to win back is not going to work - because the second she weakens and goes back to him, even as a friend, is when he will say "righto, done enough, she's back, I can carry on as before, she's used to it". And that is exACTly what he will do. And then your DD would be back exactly where she is now - in a shit relationship with a man who values gambling over his wife, family and probably friends.

She can't be his "prize". His "prize" has to be overcoming the addiction - that is the only end goal worth pursuing for him.

Glad your DD has a shortened notice period, and I think I'm right in saying she has a new job to go to as well? That's great!

I think you are right to block his mother. Her primary concern is her son and what HE wants. Right or wrong, that's only natural. But she doesn't have the right to hector you or your DD to get what she (and he) wants.

Your DH sounds a lot like my late dad. Quiet men who don't say much, but when they do you're wise to listen to what they have to say as it's usually very good advice. I hope SiL listens to him. Not because it will win DD back (and he probably doesn't want him to) but because doing it for oneself is the only way to conquer an addiction.

So DD has only 3 more weeks and (I assume) her DH doesn't realize it? I think that's really smart to be able to 'slip away' without a big scene. And that she's taking time with friends to get away. A change of scenery is always good to catch one's breath and start fresh.

Im now an ex wife of a gambler. I can tell you from experience that the situation will not change until he realises he needs help. He isn't there yet as he is still at the blame game. There is nothing your daughter can do to help him so she needs to focus on looking after herself. She should also look up gam anon - its the support group for family members dealing with gamblers and will give her the strength to deal with him and everything that he will throw at her while he is in denial. If she is thinking about divorce, make sure she gets a good lawyer who can proove he has had his share of the assets through the spending of assets through gambling. It may not be the end of the road for the marriage as this is wholly a mental health issue for her husband but depending on how long it takes until he recognises the issue, it may well be that the marriage is dead. Sending her loads of love - i would rather it had been another woman. I couldn't compete with puggy machines. I can however promise her that she will get through it and be a far stronger person as a result x

said to my eldest daughter the thing is - how do you believe a liar.
The fake break in
The friend who needed £500 and isn’t paying it back into their joint account
The man who has spent £4000 since July in bets
The man who spent £3000 in bets in 2019
The man who told her he stopped betting but used cash instead of a card

This list is missing loads of stuff that you have already mentioned on your thread. Can you see how easy it is to be in denial, to minimise and over look stuff because it’s uncomfortable? This what your DD has done - let one incident slide after another and conveniently forget others in a desperate state of hope and delusion.

Without the gambling addiction this is still an abusive emotionally violent man at his core.

He has degraded your DD, shouted, blamed, thieved, stonewalled, tried to socially control and isolate her and actively scared her.

Alongside no intimacy or warmth - what exactly is this relationship?

Some gamblers don’t do this stuff - so it’s not necessarily the addiction making him terrorise your DD - he may stop gambling and still be a nasty bastard because that’s what he has shown himself to be at his core - that’s what he’s capable of, that’s who he is. Why hang around to find out this out?

If your DD wants DCs - she needs to move on from this abusive man ASAP.

More to add to that list he also photocopied her credit card and bought 3 football tickets on it!
He also (apologies if I have mentioned this before) made her feel so awful about the bathroom not being clean enough that she has just shown my husband video of her cleaning the bathroom, which she sent to him.
They went to the south coast on a day out and he was so angry they couldn’t find a parking space he left her on the beach and drove off to look for one. When he cousins one he left her there and started to drive off I think he went for about 2 hours. Luckily my daughter rang my husband and took a screenshot of the location and my lovely husband was just about to drive down there when SIL came back.
I can’t wait for her to come home now she has three weeks left and is home every weekend.

None of us can see in the future SIL seems determined to beat this addiction. He said to DH yesterday he will never give up on my daughter. I have no experience of compulsive gambling so I don’t know how the odds are as to wether this addiction can be beaten.
Right now though my daughter has done what she knows is right and that’s what matters. She has lost over a stone and a had in weight because she has been so unhappy and she wants to loose another stone. This must be her goal now and to look after herself. I just want her to be happy that’s it.
I have been through many things in my life actually many things but this has really footed me.

Everyone deserves a second chance, but he’s had his chance and blown it.

@Icecreamlover63 - can you read back your last post as if it was someone else who had posted it - you'll see that the first paragraph/section describes an abusive bastard who kept your DD walking on eggshells, while the second is all about what HE wants and is doing.

REGARDLESS of whether this git manages to beat his gambling addiction, he needs to STAY AWAY from your DD FOREVER.
That whole bit about "he'll never give up on your DD" - I'm sorry, that is no longer his choice to make!! SHE needs to make it 100% clear to him that this is IT, they are DONE and he can fuck off and stay away.

Your DD's future can still be bright and wonderful - but NOT with this epic twat in it.

(NB - to be clear - I mean the first section, which has 2 paragraphs)

Exactly this!!
Everything is what he wants and what his doing!
We know that she knows that and I think you know that.
I’m glad he is remorseful I’m glad he now knows he has lost the best thing to walk into his life. It’s the only way he is going to get better

Dear lord OP, she felt bullied and harassed enough to send him a video of her cleaning the bathroom?

Surely you can see how absolutely horrific that is?

That has absolutely NOTHING to do with gambling.

I suggest YOU ring Women's aid to hear how this is well beyond a gambling addiction.

Your daughter is the victim of domestic abuse.

So shocking.
That poor girl.

What does your husband think of all his defense of this awful man now?

I would be fit to be tied if a SIL of mi e treated my girls like that.

He is so awful.

His behaviour now towards your DD is just further manifestations of the obsessing, intensity, compulsion and impulsivity that is the core of the addictive personality.

This man is emotionally dysfunctional and dysregulated and your DD has absorbed and endured a shocking level of disrespect, abuse and neglect to date.

Her own perspective is now so skewed as he has belittled and degraded her over time that she doesn’t even realise that these behaviours are totally unacceptable. Her self esteem is so gaslit and diminished that she needs to be 100% away from him to recentre herself in an emotionally healthy, reciprocal environment to rebuild her trust in her own self worth and judgment.

So, he's not a nice guy with a problem, he's just not a nice guy anyway.

You obviously didn't know the details before now OP.