Page 5 | To be really enjoying Boris Johnson's downfall Part 2

ClaudineClare · 2022-01-21T22:57:38+00:00

A follow on thread from [[https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4457488-to-be-really-enjoying-boris-johnson-s-downfall?msgid=114425763#114425763]]

Notonthestairs · 22/01/2022 10:10

Well I'm not the only "idiot" that takes the allegations seriously. And I'm not reduced to name calling.

The charges levelled against the prime minister could hardly be more serious: that he broke his own government’s lockdown rules and that, in trying to cover up these violations, he misled parliament. The first would not just be a breach of the law but a profound betrayal of trust for the public who, often at great personal sacrifice, obeyed the rules. from Times editorial.

Florianus · 22/01/2022 10:10

jgw1:
So essentially you are saying it is pointless having Johnson as Prime Minister because he is not responsible for anything.

There you go again. I have explained what the PM is and is not responsible for and you come out with another of your inanities, at the same time totally misrepresenting what I have said.

merrymouse · 22/01/2022 10:12

How many times do you want to demonstrate to us that you cannot read messages accurately?

I have said that in just about every reported case of an illegal gathering, it is the person or people who organised the gathering that are punished, not the many (often hundreds) who simply attended.

Is that really not clear?

Your tone is very strange, given that you are so deliberately missing the point.

Boris Johnson was the man standing at the lectern telling people the rules.

As jgw1 says, if Johnson is completely detached from the staff in his office, policies, MPs, whips, the lives of U.K. citizens, what is he for?

He is clearly not cut out for the job that he is doing. He doesn’t have the interest to see policies through, but even leaving aside all the recent fiascos, ‘cakeism’ and levelling up play well at elections but require expenditure that his colleagues won’t support.

Florianus · 22/01/2022 10:14

@Peregrina

Florianus I doubt whether the Met will come and seek my opinion, any more than they will come and seek yours.

But come off it. The Tories went and lost a by election just before Christmas, which was the most spectacular own goal, caused initially because they tried to break the rules to get one of their own off the hook. OK I expect you to say that this was nothing to do with Johnson, it was Rees-Mogg and Leasdom but that begs the question: who appointed them to the jobs they held?

No, you are wrong again. What I will say is the tories went and won a by-election just before Christmas. You have conveniently forgotten about Old Bexley and Sidcup. I have no idea if that was anything to do with Johnson - I expect you will tell us that it was all down to Keir Starmer.

Florianus · 22/01/2022 10:15

Your tone is very strange, given that you are so deliberately missing the point. Boris Johnson was the man standing at the lectern telling people the rules.

Ah, we should blame the messenger, you think?

merrymouse · 22/01/2022 10:16

www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/nov/26/boris-johnson-appoints-dan-rosenfield-chief-of-staff

florianus I think you are a bit hazy on the role of ‘chief of staff’. This is a nee role and it is a political appointment.

jgw1 · 22/01/2022 10:17

*He's responsible for his MPs and the work of the cabinet, for representing the UK at the G7, G20, COP and other world events, for looking after (like all MPs) the needs of his constituents.

He is not in charge of the civil service at No.10 (they have a Chief of Staff for that).

The whips are appointed by each party in parliament, not by the prime minister.

Sorry, but I really don't have the time to keep correcting the multitude of errors made by certain contributors to this thread. I'm off to do some shopping.*

It is indeed entirely tedious to have to keep correcting errors.
But here is one I will correct for you.

The government whips such as Marcus Jones are appointed by the Prime Minister. Marcus Jones was appointed by Boris Johnson in the reshuffle of 13th Feb 2020.

Quite clearly Boris Johnson doesn't appoint the Labour or SNP whips, but I don't think anyone was suggesting he did?

merrymouse · 22/01/2022 10:18

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downing_Street_Chief_of_Staff

This could also be helpful.

Notonthestairs · 22/01/2022 10:18

The Prime Minister is just the messenger?

merrymouse · 22/01/2022 10:21

I’m still very amused at the idea that Johnson was whizzing around the world dealing with more important matters than the pandemic during the first lockdown.

Peregrina · 22/01/2022 10:24

No, you are wrong again.
Are you going to tell me that the Tories held North Shropshire?

What I will say is the tories went and won a by-election just before Christmas. You have conveniently forgotten about Old Bexley and Sidcup. I have no idea if that was anything to do with Johnson - I expect you will tell us that it was all down to Keir Starmer.

I have most certainly not forgotten this. Reasons for them winning there could be that Brokenshire was a well respected MP, who as far as I know behaved honourably and who died prematurely. The candidate replacing him was a well known local councillor.

Unlike North Shropshire where the MP, after his behaviour being found to be egregious and the Tory Cabinet trying to bend the rules to keep him in power, eventually resigned. Instead of letting him keep his head down, serve his suspension and few people would neither know nor care. Added to that, the Tories also chose a poor candidate by selecting a man from Birmingham who appeared to have little knowledge of the constituency he wanted to represent.

jgw1 · 22/01/2022 10:29

@Florianus

jgw1: So essentially you are saying it is pointless having Johnson as Prime Minister because he is not responsible for anything.

There you go again. I have explained what the PM is and is not responsible for and you come out with another of your inanities, at the same time totally misrepresenting what I have said.

@Florianus

Every previous Prime Minister has been responsible for working with their PS and the other civil servants who work in Downing Street and has worked exceedingly closely with them.

For example here is Margaret Thatcher's PS talking about the Brighton bomb. Watch from 1 minute in.

Are you saying that Boris does not have the same close relationship with his key staff?

Original poster

ClaudineClare · 22/01/2022 10:30

Oh, no. Not the Chief of Staff thing again, Flo. You full well know the No.10 CofS is a Spad and civil servants are not answerable to him.

I think you just like to be contrary. I am going to try to stop falling for it from now on.😘

OP posts:

jgw1 · 22/01/2022 10:33

@Notonthestairs

The Prime Minister is just the messenger?

That would explain why he is not responsible for anything. It has all become clear.

Blossomtoes · 22/01/2022 10:34

He is not in charge of the civil service at No.10 (they have a Chief of Staff for that)

We established on the previous thread that ultimate responsibility for the civil service rests with the PM of the day. Were you not paying attention?

The whips are appointed by each party in parliament, not by the prime minister.

What are the whips for? To ensure the party membership in Parliament toes the party line, surely? Who’s the leader of the party? Oh, that would be the PM then!

Peregrina · 22/01/2022 10:37

The Prime Minister is just the Messenger - then why is he running round the world representing the UK?

jgw1 · 22/01/2022 10:37

@Peregrina

No, you are wrong again. Are you going to tell me that the Tories held North Shropshire?

What I will say is the tories went and won a by-election just before Christmas. You have conveniently forgotten about Old Bexley and Sidcup. I have no idea if that was anything to do with Johnson - I expect you will tell us that it was all down to Keir Starmer.

I have most certainly not forgotten this. Reasons for them winning there could be that Brokenshire was a well respected MP, who as far as I know behaved honourably and who died prematurely. The candidate replacing him was a well known local councillor.

Unlike North Shropshire where the MP, after his behaviour being found to be egregious and the Tory Cabinet trying to bend the rules to keep him in power, eventually resigned. Instead of letting him keep his head down, serve his suspension and few people would neither know nor care. Added to that, the Tories also chose a poor candidate by selecting a man from Birmingham who appeared to have little knowledge of the constituency he wanted to represent.

Lets also not forget that Old Bexley and Sidcup has always had a Tory MP and that in the by-election the Conservative share of the vote dropped 13%, the only times when there was a lower Conservative share of the vote in that constituency was when Tony Blair was Prime Minister, so it was hardly a triumph for the Conservatives in December.

jgw1 · 22/01/2022 10:38

@Peregrina

The Prime Minister is just the Messenger - then why is he running round the world representing the UK?

He is running around the world with the messages.

The messages are I think written by his Chief of Staff (or possibly a duck or Dilyn).

FatFredsFriedEgg · 22/01/2022 10:39

@merrymouse

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downing_Street_Chief_of_Staff

This could also be helpful.

The formal title was out of use between July 2019 and November 2020, under prime minister Boris Johnson, when the role was overseen by Dominic Cummings as chief adviser and Edward Lister as chief strategic adviser. However, during this time, Cummings was noted to be the de facto chief of staff.

PigletJohn · 22/01/2022 10:45

@Florianus "He is not in charge of the civil service at No.10 (they have a Chief of Staff for that)."

Remind me, who selected and appointed Boris Johnson's Chief of Staff? And who gave him his powers and responsibilities?

merrymouse · 22/01/2022 10:48

No, you are wrong again. What I will say is the tories went and won a by-election just before Christmas. You have conveniently forgotten about Old Bexley and Sidcup. I have no idea if that was anything to do with Johnson - I expect you will tell us that it was all down to Keir Starmer.

In the tragic circumstances claiming this as some kind of Johnson win is offensive.

AdamRyan · 22/01/2022 10:50

It will be up to the police to decide if the allegation amounts to a case of criminal activity. Given that the alleged blackmailer (the Chief Whip) would not make any personal gain from the alleged threat, nor would Wragg seem to suffer any personal loss, I doubt that things are anywhere as near so simple as some here seem to thik.
I assume the whips are the menaces and the blackmailer is setting the direction for the whips for the prime ministers gain

A person is guilty of blackmail if, with a view to gain for himself or another or with intent to cause loss to another, he makes any unwarranted demand with menaces

Blossomtoes · 22/01/2022 10:53

@merrymouse

No, you are wrong again. What I will say is the tories went and won a by-election just before Christmas. You have conveniently forgotten about Old Bexley and Sidcup. I have no idea if that was anything to do with Johnson - I expect you will tell us that it was all down to Keir Starmer.

In the tragic circumstances claiming this as some kind of Johnson win is offensive.

Quite. You’ll be claiming the same about Davis Amess’ seat too, I guess @Florianus. You know, the one none of the main parties are contesting.

Skiptheheartsandflowers · 22/01/2022 10:53

There you go again. I have explained what the PM is and is not responsible for

Flannel. Harry Truman famously had a sign on his desk saying 'The buck stops here'. You can't be in the top job and keep going 'oh, that's not down to me, that's not my responsibility'.

jgw1 · 22/01/2022 10:55

@Skiptheheartsandflowers

There you go again. I have explained what the PM is and is not responsible for

Flannel. Harry Truman famously had a sign on his desk saying 'The buck stops here'. You can't be in the top job and keep going 'oh, that's not down to me, that's not my responsibility'.

Can you imagine Thatcher thinking that she was not responsible for her government?