To be really enjoying Boris Johnson's downfall Part 2

[ClaudineClare]

A follow on thread from

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4457488-to-be-really-enjoying-boris-johnson-s-downfall?msgid=114425763#114425763

.. putting pressure on MPs is how Westminster works - it would be surprising if parliament has acted criminally for the last few centuries.

I suspect though, that taking their cue from the example of Johnson's dissolute behaviour, they have crossed a line to outright blackmail. We can easily guess that pulling funding from an MP's constituency would be exactly the thing they would try to do. We have seen how during the pandemic PPE contracts have been awarded to Tory mates via the VIP lane, when firms who already knew how to make PPE which worked, were frozen out.

It would be hard to prove though, because projects get delayed for legitimate reasons.

@jgw1

*The Met have said "As with any such allegations, should a criminal offence be reported to the Met, it would be considered."

But, as widely discussed on the radio this morning, putting pressure on MPs is how Westminster works - it would be surprising if parliament has acted criminally for the last few centuries.*

@Florianus If I broke into your house every week for 25minutes for a century, does that then mean that I am not breaking the law?

Part of the radio discussion that I mentioned is the observation that what happens at Westminster is often what would not be acceptable in any other workplace. One of the Whips most common pressure points, for example, is to warn recalcitrant MPs that they risk not being promoted. No HR department for MPs !

I've been reading bits from the papers this morning. Matthew Parris article inThe Times was interesting. He explained a bit about his own relationship with various whips - and the different methods used. The most successful in his view was the whip offering protection from the outside (stay in our fortress, safety in numbers, we will see you right) as opposed to a more bullying style.

It's possible that Johnson's whip do it differently (than they have previously) or are under greater pressure and resort to different tactics. "Within a parliamentary party they are the interface between leader and the led. When the leader is just blocking his ears, they panic. The whips’ behaviour alleged this week smacks to me mostly of such panic. Whips are often at their ugliest when they know you’re right. Boris Johnson may not be lying when he says he has no evidence of such goings-on — but he wouldn’t. A prime minister outsources discipline to the whips, but the PM creates the ethos they work in. He has made their work impossible."

Also the idea (I'm lifting from Marina Hyde) that there is something of a generational shift within the commons and the newer and possibly younger MP's are not prepared by the old style rules of engagement.

Interesting times.

But, as widely discussed on the radio this morning, putting pressure on MPs is how Westminster works - it would be surprising if parliament has acted criminally for the last few centuries.

If you accept the claims as just part of ordinary Westminster life, you are still left with the fact that

1. It didn’t work and in the middle of huge domestic and international crises Johnson’s MPs are ignoring him

2. Funding for red wall constituencies is just a political tool that can be withdrawn on a whim.

Boris Johnson is the Frank Gallagher of politics, underneath the elitism he is a grubby waster, but he knows how to throw a parrtayy

@Roussette

I want him to stay.

Because I want him to hang on by his fingernails and do as much damage to the party before a GE. And all the MPs supporting him would have a light shone on them and they could then potentially lose their seats.
(Desperate for my MP to lose his as he honestly is dire)

^This... but its also why he will probably go... its not a done deal, possible a conflict in Ukraine will save him or another CV variant.

My MP is awful, i thought Scott Mann was bad but having moved to a new area, its clear he was actually very good..... Sheryll Murray is devoid of any integrity at all.

Part of the radio discussion that I mentioned is the observation that what happens at Westminster is often what would not be acceptable in any other workplace. One of the Whips most common pressure points, for example, is to warn recalcitrant MPs that they risk not being promoted. No HR department for MPs !

If I am awkward and not a team player at work I am less likely to get promoted. That is rather different from using public money to blackmail someone.

One of the Whips most common pressure points, for example, is to warn recalcitrant MPs that they risk not being promoted. No HR department for MPs

MPs aren't classed as employed or self employed, have no contract of employment and fill out self assessment, wouldn't expect them to have an HR dept.

Do you think threatening an MP with exposing their addiction issues is the correct way to win their support? or perhaps withholding funds from their constituents is more acceptable?

My MP is awful, i thought Scott Mann was bad but having moved to a new area, its clear he was actually very good..... Sheryll Murray is devoid of any integrity at all.

Has she been trying to get Saudi to pay her to represent them in parliament? If not I think you have probably not got to the bottom of the heap.

If you accept the claims as just part of ordinary Westminster life, you are still left with the fact that It didn’t work and in the middle of huge domestic and international crises Johnson’s MPs are ignoring him

Ignoring him? How come the government are continuing to win votes in parliament?

@Alexandra2001

One of the Whips most common pressure points, for example, is to warn recalcitrant MPs that they risk not being promoted. No HR department for MPs

MPs aren't classed as employed or self employed, have no contract of employment and fill out self assessment, wouldn't expect them to have an HR dept.

Do you think threatening an MP with exposing their addiction issues is the correct way to win their support? or perhaps withholding funds from their constituents is more acceptable?

No, but I doubt that it is illegal.

No, but I doubt that it is illegal.

@Florianus Can I be clear. You are doubting that threatening to withhold public money from a constituency due to the way an MP votes is illegal?
Do you think it would be immoral to do that?

Also the idea (I'm lifting from Marina Hyde) that there is something of a generational shift within the commons and the newer and possibly younger MP's are not prepared by the old style rules of engagement

I think there may be something on this. The Westminster machine is something of a dinosaur, lumbering along. Perhaps this whole fiasco will help reform it into something more in keeping with the modern workplace.

The Times reporting that Sue Gray's report may come out as late as Thursday - this would work well for Johnson as MP's would have headed back to their constituency offices for Friday surgery so less tea room chat.

Also reporting that staff will be expected to fall on their sword.

But, as widely discussed on the radio this morning, putting pressure on MPs is how Westminster works - it would be surprising if parliament has acted criminally for the last few centuries.

William Wragg is a well respected MP. The fact he's bought this up suggests this is an unusual, new behaviour by the whips, not that Paliament has been acting unlawfully for centuries.

Legal definition of blackmail:
(1)A person is guilty of blackmail if, with a view to gain for himself or another or with intent to cause loss to another, he makes any unwarranted demand with menaces; and for this purpose a demand with menaces is unwarranted unless the person making it does so in the belief—
(a)that he has reasonable grounds for making the demand; and
(b)that the use of the menaces is a proper means of reinforcing the demand.

I'm horrified that MPs have been allegedly threatened with smear campaigns against them if they break ranks with the party line. That's totally unacceptable.

Turkeys florianus. Christmas.

@Notonthestairs

The Times reporting that Sue Gray's report may come out as late as Thursday - this would work well for Johnson as MP's would have headed back to their constituency offices for Friday surgery so less tea room chat.

Also reporting that staff will be expected to fall on their sword.

The flip side of that though is that MPs will hear straight away exactly what constituents think of it.
No about of protestations that Sue Gray hasn't found the PM guilty of anything will persuade few that that is the point, given that Sue Gray's remit is not to pass judgement.

Threatening to expose a compromising element of someone's personal life, unless you do what you want them to do is very much illegal @florianus. It is the the very definition of blackmail!

@AdamRyan

But, as widely discussed on the radio this morning, putting pressure on MPs is how Westminster works - it would be surprising if parliament has acted criminally for the last few centuries.

William Wragg is a well respected MP. The fact he's bought this up suggests this is an unusual, new behaviour by the whips, not that Paliament has been acting unlawfully for centuries.

Legal definition of blackmail:
(1)A person is guilty of blackmail if, with a view to gain for himself or another or with intent to cause loss to another, he makes any unwarranted demand with menaces; and for this purpose a demand with menaces is unwarranted unless the person making it does so in the belief—
(a)that he has reasonable grounds for making the demand; and
(b)that the use of the menaces is a proper means of reinforcing the demand.

I'm horrified that MPs have been allegedly threatened with smear campaigns against them if they break ranks with the party line. That's totally unacceptable.

Luckily as Prime Minister we have someone so well known for his integrity that there is absolutely no chance anyone will believe that those who work for him would try and blackmail anyone.

I meant to say "unless theydo what you want them to do is very much illegal..."

The Times also publishing a very strongly worded article about the importance of Sue Frays report being published in full. It also throws significant shade on the idea that the report is independent.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-times-view-on-downing-street-parties-honest-inquiry-95rlbl33p

No, but I doubt that it is illegal

Blackmail is illegal unless the demands are reasonable or is a proper means to enforce the demand.

Is keeping BJ in power a reasonable demand?

I really don't understand your angle on the blackmail issue, florianus? I know you have said you are not a Johnson supporter, but from your posts here and on the previous thread, it would very easy to conclude the opposite.

jgw - yes I suppose some MP's will keep a close eye on their post at and ear to the ground.

But my previous MP told me that she knew what was needed better than her constituents. Said with absolute confidence and not even an attempt to engage despite the overflowing inbox.

But then she did lost her seat!

Florianus has told us many times that she/he just wants to see the right people get punished.
And Johnson is not one of the right people because he lacks authority (moral or otherwise).