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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

What can realistically be done with violent kids in classroom?

403 replies

EdithRea · 21/01/2022 17:06

Since Reception one boy has been a problem in the classroom. Aggressive, swearing, tears down the displays, rips up children's work, throws chairs, uses the f and c word at the teacher and screams throughout class.

Instead of regaling me with nice tales of crayoning or writing, my youngest instead reported that various male teachers from around the school frequently have to be called to the classroom to restrain this child. Hearing a 4 year old talk about such things was a shock, but it became our day to day reality. The boy is violent to classmates and I told her to keep as far away as she could, to stay with a teacher if necessary, as he 'looks up girls skirts' and tears out their hair.

He has been known to gleefully kill insects in front of the other children, which left my child utterly distraught at the time. One was a butterfly.

A few years pass. The kid remains problematic and class projects and plans are cancelled due to him. The entire playground needs to be split up especially to 'keep him away' from starting fights with other boys.

Pandemic hits, homeworking, I slowly forget The Kid. She goes back, and I am reminded of The Kid. The displays are torn down again. More chairs thrown. I see the child arriving at school. He's obviously much larger. Male teachers are still brought in to control him. He is often removed from the room and taught elsewhere, meaning no teaching assistant cover for the class.

Today a science fair type treat for the children was ruined because instead of building their experiments and displaying their models, the boy went around the room and tore everyone's work to shreds, and again had to be restrained and removed by male teachers. I reiterate that only because it must be his size, or an indicator as to the level of his aggression, that they call the blokes in.

Back in the days that school trips existed, her class never went. They were supposed to get 'a treat' last year which got cancelled after The Kid smashed a newly refurbished bathroom up, tearing up tiles and plaster.

What can realistically be done? There's been years of this now, and my child sounds so bloody upset and defeated. School is miserable. Class is just a battle between keeping the kids safe from this boy. They're watching adults struggling with a raging boy instead of learning. She's worn down by the most shocking, vile language. She's afraid of the chair-throwing and table upending. And when he's 11 it's going to be a lot worse.

I don't know what can realistically be done. At some point the school should surely admit they cannot cope. But they might not. And in that sense maybe I can ask my kid be moved to another class. But that doesn't help the 28 kids left behind.

There's no spaces at other schools. Very long waiting lists. Can't g o private.

OP posts:
helterskelter3 · 21/01/2022 18:38

All the people saying that the child needs specialist schools and a different provision, aren’t living in the real world. I’ve taught children like this. An EHCP isn’t a magic wand, a 121 only works in some circumstances and if they have been specially trained to provide for a child with a diagnosis. There aren’t spaces at special school readily available. No schools wants an exclusion on their books because it’s a black mark when OFSTED come. It’s all a mess. External assistance from LAs for children like this is virtually useless. That said, the school should not be letting the other children miss out on trips. The child shouldn’t go on it and should stay in school whilst the others go.

BrunoNoNoNo · 21/01/2022 18:38

And yes it can take time - but if they'd applied sooner it would be done by now (I'm guessing the child is in juniors now).

tm2 · 21/01/2022 18:40

Long time lurker (penis beaker etc) but had to reply just as I SO agree with @IllManneredBitch. I feel a lot of guilt that we send our kids private - in no small part thanks to help from extremely kind, wealthy in-laws, not to mention both working full time. And this is in sharp contrast to my left wing politics, and I’ve taken a lot of flack from all my lovely lefty friends and family as a result. But knowing how Tories have cut social care and education to the bone and seen my children suffer at primary level as a result, I’m sorry but I jumped. Your post brought back a lot of familiar memories sadly. You’re not failing as a parent you’re being failed, and so is your child and so is This poor Kid. Must be horrific for teachers too. Don’t vote Tory! State education needs proper investment and while that’s not happening I’m out.

Georgeskitchen · 21/01/2022 18:42

I'm mystified as to how long the school has allowed this to continue . Surely there must have been many complaints from parents. The parents need to band together and demand that this child is removed from the school immediately

Liveandlove91 · 21/01/2022 18:44

Yes you are right you have to fight left and right to get the support you child needs and it doesn't happen over night my son has to have 1-1 . most days I have a call to collect him . As parents that's hard to see pur children missing out on activities being excluded from the other children doesn't help

Curioushorse · 21/01/2022 18:45

We were discussing this at work (a large secondary school) today. Parental emails work. We need it. Please email in. The school will be outwardly professional with you- but internally they'll be thanking you.

LyndaSnellsSniff · 21/01/2022 18:46

What a dreadful situation for everybody involved. The child is clearly in completely the wrong setting. It's likely that both school and the child's parents have been to trying to access specialist education for him for a long time but to no avail. In the school I work in, we have a child who has spent his entire primary career in mainstream, where he absolutely should NOT be. Unfortunately no specialised setting will take him and so he stays where he is.

School have a duty of care to a of their pupils so the only thing you can do is raise the issue every single time there is an incident, citing their duty of care. All class parents should do this and it might help with the child's placement in a more appropriate setting.

MrsHamlet · 21/01/2022 18:46

@Georgeskitchen

I'm mystified as to how long the school has allowed this to continue . Surely there must have been many complaints from parents. The parents need to band together and demand that this child is removed from the school immediately
Demand the child is removed by whom? To where? It doesn't work like that.
Liveandlove91 · 21/01/2022 18:46

And then people like u really piss me off @Georgeskitchen demand the child is removed have heart that is a child that is struggling Angry

Jolilsmum · 21/01/2022 18:46

It is parental choice where a child's goes to school, I can assure you dealing with kind of behaviour is extremely stressful for teachers and exhausting. The responsibility of keeping other children safe as well as meeting needs can be overwhelming. Very few places in SEMH provisions and the process is long and difficult. Schools have to prove they gave done everything they can to help and have implemented professional advice before anyone will listen. It is really hard

Liveandlove91 · 21/01/2022 18:48

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

lumpofcomfort · 21/01/2022 18:53

I agree with complaining after each incident. However, if there is no resolution I would also write to your MP. One of the difficulties that has become worse with effects of the pandemic is that schools cannot do anything about excluding a pupil without sufficient evidence, including from outside agencies. It is currently taking forever to get anyone in to observe challenging pupils, in my area anyway.

We have a pupil in Reception who cannot cope with school at all - sounds very similar to the pupil you describe - and we haven't been able to get anyone from outside the school to come in at all yet to observe them. The relevant professionals are already few and far between due to funding cuts and there are now additional backlogs because of Covid. It's an impossible situation.

Iamnotthe1 · 21/01/2022 18:53

@BrunoNoNoNo

EHCPs are difficult to get, but:
  1. not THAT difficult if you're organised and persistent - I have done it twice

  2. this school must have STACKS of evidence to support an application

I'd always advise parents to apply rather than the school. The school still provides the same level of support for the application in terms of evidence and does chunks of the work but parental applications are less likely to be rejected by the authority (in my experience).

In my authority, if a parent threatens to take the authority to tribunal over their rejected application, they backtrack and grant it. Whereas they reject school applications constantly. Some LAs just don't want the expense and hassle of legal proceedings.

StrictlyAFemaleFemale · 21/01/2022 18:53

How to do it without being rude? You need to go at it with safeguarding. How are they keeping your child safe? You describe. Take the emotion out. DD doesnt feel safe because of several incidents over the last 3 years including but not limited to:

  • blah
  • blah
  • blah
MilduraS · 21/01/2022 18:54

@Liveandlove91

This is so very sad to see that a child with disabilities health issues or something is getting slated by grown adults. How would you feel if this was your child 🤔
I'd be standing alongside the parents fighting for him to be given specialist help. If this child doesn't get the care and help he needs he will turn into a violent, abusive fully grown man.
lumpofcomfort · 21/01/2022 18:56

Also as PP mentioned, there is a total lack of suitable placements to support those with additional needs who cannot cope in mainstream schools. I have close links to a very successful AP school and while they have places, the Local Authority cannot afford the finding to fill the places.

lumpofcomfort · 21/01/2022 18:57

funding

Liveandlove91 · 21/01/2022 18:57

@MilduraS do you know how hard it is to get the help and professional s ?? It took me months years to get the help my son needed don't you think the parents of the child prob already no that they need support not being judge mental . You cam be concerned for your child but that doesn't mean beavuse a child has needs they should be removed!!!!

Onionpatch · 21/01/2022 19:00

@Jolilsmum

It is parental choice where a child's goes to school, I can assure you dealing with kind of behaviour is extremely stressful for teachers and exhausting. The responsibility of keeping other children safe as well as meeting needs can be overwhelming. Very few places in SEMH provisions and the process is long and difficult. Schools have to prove they gave done everything they can to help and have implemented professional advice before anyone will listen. It is really hard
It is hard, but surely also right that schools have to prove they have tried everything they can and sought advice to support a child. I feel quite strongly about this as my school takes on a lot of 'fair access' and 'managed move' children and often their previous school hasnt done a great job and the child manages significantly better with us.
itsgettingweird · 21/01/2022 19:03

They shouldn't be telling kids they can't have a school trip now because they need to pay for a new bathroom. Shock

That's putting the responsibility onto the school kids. They aren't to blame for this lads behaviour, he isn't to blame either as clearly he's wrongly placed.

The email just needs to out ball into schools court.

Ask questions such as "how are you going to ensure my dds belonging are not broken again"

If the school are battling the law to get him placed appropriately the more evidence they have from other parents on the effect on other pupils the more it may also support the school.

DockOTheBay · 21/01/2022 19:03

The school should be collecting evidence to have him moved to a SEN school or PRU.

It is really unfair that school trips are cancelled because of one student.

I would definitely contact them every time there is an incident.

gunnersgold · 21/01/2022 19:06

He needs to be in a special school with support . Does he have any sn ? Surely he must have to behave like that !

OnceuponaRainbow18 · 21/01/2022 19:08

If he’s honestly that bad I would contact your local
Authority and Ofsted, the school can’t meet his needs and I’m not being able to he’s ruining everyone else’s experience.

If not I would seriously consider moving my child to a different school, it sounds like hell

MilduraS · 21/01/2022 19:08

[quote Liveandlove91]@MilduraS do you know how hard it is to get the help and professional s ?? It took me months years to get the help my son needed don't you think the parents of the child prob already no that they need support not being judge mental . You cam be concerned for your child but that doesn't mean beavuse a child has needs they should be removed!!!![/quote]
I'm not saying it's easy but everyone affected by his behaviour needs to fight for it and keep fighting for it. To be honest I don't see any solution other than moving him away from kids who have already put up with so much disruption. At his age there's time to help but there won't always be.

Or we could leave it and when he's 18 and drunkenly beats some poor random young man to a pulp we can continue to make excuses for him. Or maybe when he gets a girlfriend and throws a chair at her in anger we can all tell her it's not his fault, he's been failed and she should stay.

spanieleyes · 21/01/2022 19:09

You can't just " move a child to a SEN school" I only wish you could!
First you almost always need an EHCP, these are not easy to get- whatever anyone says.
Then the parent needs to want special provision. If a parent wants mainstream, they will get it, in the vast majority of cases. If a school says they can't meet needs, they can be overruled by the LA. Even if the LA agrees that specialist provision is required, there has to be a space- the SEN boards are overrun with parents trying to find suitable provision for their child. It can take months, years to find a placement.

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