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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

What can realistically be done with violent kids in classroom?

403 replies

EdithRea · 21/01/2022 17:06

Since Reception one boy has been a problem in the classroom. Aggressive, swearing, tears down the displays, rips up children's work, throws chairs, uses the f and c word at the teacher and screams throughout class.

Instead of regaling me with nice tales of crayoning or writing, my youngest instead reported that various male teachers from around the school frequently have to be called to the classroom to restrain this child. Hearing a 4 year old talk about such things was a shock, but it became our day to day reality. The boy is violent to classmates and I told her to keep as far away as she could, to stay with a teacher if necessary, as he 'looks up girls skirts' and tears out their hair.

He has been known to gleefully kill insects in front of the other children, which left my child utterly distraught at the time. One was a butterfly.

A few years pass. The kid remains problematic and class projects and plans are cancelled due to him. The entire playground needs to be split up especially to 'keep him away' from starting fights with other boys.

Pandemic hits, homeworking, I slowly forget The Kid. She goes back, and I am reminded of The Kid. The displays are torn down again. More chairs thrown. I see the child arriving at school. He's obviously much larger. Male teachers are still brought in to control him. He is often removed from the room and taught elsewhere, meaning no teaching assistant cover for the class.

Today a science fair type treat for the children was ruined because instead of building their experiments and displaying their models, the boy went around the room and tore everyone's work to shreds, and again had to be restrained and removed by male teachers. I reiterate that only because it must be his size, or an indicator as to the level of his aggression, that they call the blokes in.

Back in the days that school trips existed, her class never went. They were supposed to get 'a treat' last year which got cancelled after The Kid smashed a newly refurbished bathroom up, tearing up tiles and plaster.

What can realistically be done? There's been years of this now, and my child sounds so bloody upset and defeated. School is miserable. Class is just a battle between keeping the kids safe from this boy. They're watching adults struggling with a raging boy instead of learning. She's worn down by the most shocking, vile language. She's afraid of the chair-throwing and table upending. And when he's 11 it's going to be a lot worse.

I don't know what can realistically be done. At some point the school should surely admit they cannot cope. But they might not. And in that sense maybe I can ask my kid be moved to another class. But that doesn't help the 28 kids left behind.

There's no spaces at other schools. Very long waiting lists. Can't g o private.

OP posts:
Liveandlove91 · 21/01/2022 19:31

So what you suggest the child gets removed because the parents don't want that kid their because they are more a handful to others lol so what u geoint to get a patition going .how would that make you or a child feel . 🤔 I stand by what I have said nothing I have said is wrong ! My child can be aggressive and disruptive so that means he can't go to school... no I think not

Twinkleylight · 21/01/2022 19:31

What's the response of this kid's parents towards his behaviour?

Mumofsend · 21/01/2022 19:31

@MNSEN

Until that provision is provided he needs excluding for the safety and mental well-being of the other children. One child's needs cannot top those of the whole class.

No. Such an exclusion would be illegal. He needs support and the school would be expected to put in 1-2-1 support before applying for the funding through an EHCP.

They should also be saying the cannot meet his needs and hksupoorting his family in finding specialist provision. They have a legal duty to keep all of the children safe. The child should be supported correctly so that is possible.

The child is not at fault here. The school is.

Fully agree.

My DD's school managed it following one incident. They worked out how to support her needs.

callingon · 21/01/2022 19:31

@IHeartKingThistle I’ve done a lot of transition/year 7 support and I’ve often found that kids who are flagged up as a big problem in primary settle well in secondary - leading me to think that primary didn’t suit them - and that by Christmas there are about 6 totally unmonitored kids with no paperwork who are not coping at all - leading me to think they can’t secondary doesn’t suit them. I mean it won’t be all of them who suddenly start exploding with rage but I think the transition to secondary can be really significant for some children.

I find it really hard to form an opinion on the mainstream/specialist side of things cos I’ve done both and feel like it’s such a random crapshoot it’s almost pointless trying to decide what’s best. Had kids in dedicated SEMH provision where I honestly couldn’t say how they’ve ended up there or how the LA agreed to pay for them but I basically think their previous schools just couldn’t be arsed with them, I certainly felt they would have been better suited to mainstream, been in a mainstream school which excluded one boy after making very minimal attempts to meet his needs and I’m really not sure how they legally managed to exclude him - I think they basically took advantage of the fact his parents were on no position to fight it. Then the same mainstream school actually put good provision in place for one boy who is probably the most troubled pupil I’ve come across, with more significant SEMH needs than almost all the kids in the special school 🤷🏻‍♀️🤷🏻‍♀️🤷🏻‍♀️ Schools are just so different and it’s so hard to draw conclusions about where a pupil will be best looked after.

Sockpile · 21/01/2022 19:32

@Liveandlove91 of the child’s needs were met at school then the child’s behaviour at home would probably improve too. Some children just can not cope in mainstream and need specialist for their own sake and those around them too.

Iamnotthe1 · 21/01/2022 19:32

@WonderfulYou

Not blaming primary schools as I don't know what their processes are, but I have no idea how these kids end up in mainstream secondary. Sometimes they have EHCPs, but not always.

Of all the children I know with EHCPs I’d say about 90% went to a mainstream primary school and either got their EHCP towards the end of primary or when they got to secondary school - I don’t know why, maybe the criteria is higher for primary ages kids. But it would save a lot of stress for everyone involved if they were given one sooner.

In general, the younger the child, the harder it is to secure an EHCP. There are exceptions but the behaviour exhibited by children at a young age can sometimes be brushed aside as typical for that age, both by professionals and especially by parents. We often get parents who refuse to pursue diagnosises, support EHCP applications, engage with SEN provision or support, etc. during KS1 but then have a moment of realisation in KS2 when the difference between their child and others around them is much clearer and wider.

It's rarer to move to specialist provision in primary because there are some pupils who do cope in mainstream primaries but the structure of secondaries mean that they don't cope there. Some parents know this and start to push for movements in upper primary but others don't or they want to "try it and see".

OnceuponaRainbow18 · 21/01/2022 19:33

@Liveandlove91

because they are more a handful to others lol

They are more than a handful, they are violent, aggressive, and their behaviour is stopping others from going on trips/having rewards

Liveandlove91 · 21/01/2022 19:34

Stopping them going on trips get a grip.. !!! My child doesn't go on the bloody trips that's doesn't mean his class doesn't go ...you don't no fuck all. That's why they have 1 to 1 support and ehp etc you lot need to grow up

trunktoes · 21/01/2022 19:34

@Liveandlove91 what about the other 29 kids in the class? Is it more important to keep your son in the school regardless of the impact on 28 other kids?

MNSEN · 21/01/2022 19:35

[quote Mumofsend]@Onionpatch this is exactly the predicament we are in and fortunately my DD mainly runs when upset so doesn't have a huge impact on the others. The specialist option presented to us was a class of 8 boys with severe behavioural needs whose "schools could no longer cope with them" and my DD who is highly anxious and limited behavioural issues.

The other options were for learning difficulties, she is too capable for them.

Ultimately the less than ideal mainstream solution was the best of the three options for her.

But again, I'm lucky she isn't an issue with other children. It is just her who is getting a raw deal.[/quote]
It doesn't sound as though either of these options would support your DD in the way her EHCP must require her to be supported. Have you spoken to SENDIAS about what else is in the local area?

Liveandlove91 · 21/01/2022 19:35

More of a handful they have a disability a disease you really need to go educate yourself and your child !!!! HANDFUL YOU HAVE NO CLUE

OnceuponaRainbow18 · 21/01/2022 19:35

@Liveandlove91

The OP said the class trips got cancelled because of the kids behaviour

ConsuelaHammock · 21/01/2022 19:35

Is that comment aimed at me Liveand love .
Mainstream education is not the place for aggressive, disruptive and disrespectful children.
What will happen to your aggressive and disruptive child when he reaches the age of criminal responsibility? Do you expect him to be treated differently then too?

Liveandlove91 · 21/01/2022 19:36

So because my son has needs he can't go to sch9ol my son has a plan in place and support you as a parent should be ashamed my child has as much right as yoir child and everyone else weather they have disabilities or not

Hyenaormeercat · 21/01/2022 19:36

Dd recently quit as a TA after being punched, kicked, spat at, sworn at daily by a young primary child ..classes trashed, other kids attacked..he had soon worked out that to go out to play he just had to do it and he was allowed out. DD had worked previously with kids with various extra needs who were challenging but lovely but this one nearly broke her. Certainly not paid enough to be told by a small child to 'fuck off bitch' on a daily basis and then effectively rewarded for it. She felt so sorry for the rest of the class who were constantly on edge waiting for his next outburst.

OnceuponaRainbow18 · 21/01/2022 19:37

@Liveandlove91

We aren’t talking about your son though, we don’t know anything about him. We are talking about the very violent boy described in the OP.

MondayYogurt · 21/01/2022 19:38

What sort of home life does The Kid have if he was using F and C word at age 4?

Mumofsend · 21/01/2022 19:38

@callingon my DD's primary school can be really hit and miss. They've been incredible for my DD, but she has very clear SEN. There is another boy in her year who the head at some point decided is just badly behaved and has put nothing in place except exclusions. Looking at the difference of what the two receive its astonishing its the same school. I also wonder if it is partly because I'm quite a bit more willing to work with the school rather than the other parents.

I suspect my DD is naturally going to find things easier as she couldn't cope with the chaos of reception and year 1 between lockdowns and the set ups but year 2 she has really calmed. She seems to like it the more structured and predictable it gets. So who knows.

It's really scary making life changing decisions without a crystal ball.

HopelesslyOptimistic · 21/01/2022 19:39

Move your child from this hideous school. Are you honestly saying you have yet to complain! And how do I do it. You have just prepared a summary of the most awful traumatic scenario that appears never ending. March up there and demand action.

Sockpile · 21/01/2022 19:40

@Liveandlove91 for some an EHCP and 1-1 will be enough to keep other children safe from a violent and aggressive child. Others will need a specialist environment. No one is saying Sen children shouldn’t be on mainstream just that some need more support than a mainstream can offer.

ConsuelaHammock · 21/01/2022 19:40

It sounds like your son should be in a special school where he gets his needs met. Not in a mainstream school where he is aggressive and disruptive. You sound angry that parents are fed up with their children’s education being ruined by one or two children. It’s not fair ! The needs of one child should not trump the needs of the many.

Mumofsend · 21/01/2022 19:43

@mnsen oh yes. Went through sendiass, rang every single school within 60 minutes. Spoke to parents. Hassled schools again. There is just nothing for the capable child who needs a small, calm environment that isn't severe behavioural needs. We also looked at indy mainstreams.

Celticroseandsea · 21/01/2022 19:43

OP we have the same problem. They’re now in Yr3 and it’s still an issue.

It’s awful. The things these children have heard and witnessed. Even being evacuated for their own safety while this child was on a rampage.

It’s awful. Nothing changes though. He doesn’t even have his own 1:1

We’re in the UK too

Onionpatch · 21/01/2022 19:49

I do find it hard when i see lots of posts saying to remove a child, because i always feel the response should be give the child appropriate support. That support might be in the existing school or a special school or some sort of alternative provision. Some schools are better at supporting children than others and we will never know how much ops school has done, only that it isnt working.
I have a huge amount of sympathy for everyone in this scenario.

SmellyWellyWoo · 21/01/2022 19:50

I find it so bizarre that you wouldn't raise this issue once with the school in four years. Totally unbelievable. Is this Jackanory?