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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

What can realistically be done with violent kids in classroom?

403 replies

EdithRea · 21/01/2022 17:06

Since Reception one boy has been a problem in the classroom. Aggressive, swearing, tears down the displays, rips up children's work, throws chairs, uses the f and c word at the teacher and screams throughout class.

Instead of regaling me with nice tales of crayoning or writing, my youngest instead reported that various male teachers from around the school frequently have to be called to the classroom to restrain this child. Hearing a 4 year old talk about such things was a shock, but it became our day to day reality. The boy is violent to classmates and I told her to keep as far away as she could, to stay with a teacher if necessary, as he 'looks up girls skirts' and tears out their hair.

He has been known to gleefully kill insects in front of the other children, which left my child utterly distraught at the time. One was a butterfly.

A few years pass. The kid remains problematic and class projects and plans are cancelled due to him. The entire playground needs to be split up especially to 'keep him away' from starting fights with other boys.

Pandemic hits, homeworking, I slowly forget The Kid. She goes back, and I am reminded of The Kid. The displays are torn down again. More chairs thrown. I see the child arriving at school. He's obviously much larger. Male teachers are still brought in to control him. He is often removed from the room and taught elsewhere, meaning no teaching assistant cover for the class.

Today a science fair type treat for the children was ruined because instead of building their experiments and displaying their models, the boy went around the room and tore everyone's work to shreds, and again had to be restrained and removed by male teachers. I reiterate that only because it must be his size, or an indicator as to the level of his aggression, that they call the blokes in.

Back in the days that school trips existed, her class never went. They were supposed to get 'a treat' last year which got cancelled after The Kid smashed a newly refurbished bathroom up, tearing up tiles and plaster.

What can realistically be done? There's been years of this now, and my child sounds so bloody upset and defeated. School is miserable. Class is just a battle between keeping the kids safe from this boy. They're watching adults struggling with a raging boy instead of learning. She's worn down by the most shocking, vile language. She's afraid of the chair-throwing and table upending. And when he's 11 it's going to be a lot worse.

I don't know what can realistically be done. At some point the school should surely admit they cannot cope. But they might not. And in that sense maybe I can ask my kid be moved to another class. But that doesn't help the 28 kids left behind.

There's no spaces at other schools. Very long waiting lists. Can't g o private.

OP posts:
MabelsApron · 22/01/2022 14:44

@LakieLady

I think they should have worked on identifying a place where the needs of their child could be properly met

How many parents have the skills and resources to do that? And it would still need the LEA to fund it, so better by far for the LEA assess the need AND identify appropriate provision, at least that way it'll be something the LEA is willing and able to pay for.

I feel like we’re splitting hairs here. Parents/LEA need to work together to identify the facilities that properly meet their child’s needs. Throwing up hands and saying it’s quite difficult for parents to do that, when other children are getting chairs thrown at them is quite frankly madness.
Spikeyball · 22/01/2022 14:52

Local Authorities don't work with any one to identify facilities that properly meet a child's needs. They are only interested in spending as little money. When a child's needs are properly met it is almost always the parents doing and it requires knowledge, confidence, an ability to see through lying and cope with bullying, hours of time and often money for professional reports and solicitors. Those who have never been there have no idea.

Mumofsend · 22/01/2022 15:02

@Spikeyball

Local Authorities don't work with any one to identify facilities that properly meet a child's needs. They are only interested in spending as little money. When a child's needs are properly met it is almost always the parents doing and it requires knowledge, confidence, an ability to see through lying and cope with bullying, hours of time and often money for professional reports and solicitors. Those who have never been there have no idea.
And this is the major issue. As a parent who was able to understand the system, and have the knowledge and confidence to push for the law to be followed and my daughter's needs to be met, I 100% was going to fight against putting my child in a worse position than she is already in. I am that parent who enforced her right to mainstream.

A year it took to sort her EHCP and I nearly had a complete and utter breakdown. Gaslighting by the LA, having MASH rung out of concerns re my anxiety regarding LA decisions, 'professional meetings' I was excluded from. It was absolutely hideous.

I'm 100% glad I did it. If there was a suitable option she would be moved in a heartbeat. I don't think any parent would want their 7 year old highly anxious girl in a class of 8 boys. Things these boys have done include inappropriate sexualised behaviour. It was the school the LA use when nowhere is more suitable. Her class would have been 10 including her, the 8 boys and the lady 10 is a temporary place for any child that has been excluded for more than xx days.

If LAs prioritised needs being met rather than cheapest option everything would be a lot better.

It ends up a vicious cycle. Ie I know of mum A who had twins non-verbal autism. She identified an indy specialist as only setting to meet needs. LA insisted on a school for PMLD. Went to tribunal and mum won. Meanwhile mum B has a child that needs a PMLD place, ended up with no place as the place was blocked for a child who never should have had the school named in the first place. It's a vicious cycle.

The LA resisted my DD staying in mainstream as to properly fund her cost more than the inappropriate specialist. Tough. School stood firm against the LA so they weren't short changed on funding and we finally got there.

Mumofsend · 22/01/2022 15:05

Professional reports wise

2k EP report
£735 salt report
£580 OT report

£200-ish IPSEA training courses.

I couldn't afford solicitors. I got the £735 back for SALT from the LA eventually.

trunktoes · 22/01/2022 15:35

@Spikeyball school doesn't exist to give parents a break.

Mumofsend · 22/01/2022 15:48

@trunktoes except it is 9 times out of 10 the only respite a parent can access. Social services regard school as parental respite. So yes, for many families it absolutely does serve a role of the only break they get.

Spikeyball · 22/01/2022 15:48

So there was no whinging when parents were forced to look after their children at home all day during lockdown and no moaning that it effected their ability to work? And no jealousy of people whose children were allowed in?

danni0509 · 22/01/2022 15:53

Exactly @Spikeyball and those aren’t even the children that are challengingly behaved.

trunktoes · 22/01/2022 15:57

@Spikeyball that's different. Trying to educate your child at home when you are not trained to do so and manage to also work is not the same as sending kids to school for a rest.

Mumofsend · 22/01/2022 15:58

@trunktoes good avoidance of my point that school very much is classed officially as respite Grin

whattodo2019 · 22/01/2022 16:01

I would request a
meeting with the Head. Your child is being let down and so is the offending child. It's totally unacceptable.
I would also look at
moving your own child.

danni0509 · 22/01/2022 16:02

So it’s ok for you to send your child to school so you can go to work, but it’s not ok to send your child to school so a frazzled parent (frazzled being an understatement) can have a respite break?

@trunktoes

SniffMyFeet · 22/01/2022 16:04

It's a strange old world isn't it? If a child witnesses violence at home there's outrage. If there's violence in a workplace it's dealt with but children at school trying to learn have to put up with it

Spikeyball · 22/01/2022 16:05

"@Spikeyball that's different. Trying to educate your child at home when you are not trained to do so and manage to also work is not the same as sending kids to school for a rest."

But that is exactly what you are expecting parents of children with challenging behaviour to do. But apparently it is ok for those children not to get taught and it is ok for those parents not to be able to work.

And there was definitely whinging about just having the kids home.

trunktoes · 22/01/2022 16:06

@danni0509 I send my child to
School to be educated which I am not trained to do. I don't send them to school to allow me to work. I didn't suddenly develop teaching skills and an ability to solve maths equations and understand every subject - which is what parents were expected to do in addition to work. There is no comparison.

trunktoes · 22/01/2022 16:11

@Spikeyball but children like the OP describes are not being educated at school. They are being disruptive what are they actually gaining - that's the whole point. They are being sent somewhere which is not benefiting them and is detrimental to the children that it would benefit. If the kid wasn't disrupting lessons etc the OP wouldn't have a complaint

Mumofsend · 22/01/2022 16:12

@SniffMyFeet no one is actually saying that. These children need properly supporting so that these things don't happen.

@trunktoes I was never trained in significant autism. And I sure as hell wasn't trained in how to educate a child with learning difficulties, particularly her severe dyslexia. I wasn't trained to stay awake 20 hours a day. I wasn't trained in extreme anxiety.

If you ask social care for official respite you get told school is respite. The stance is that they are entitled to that school place so would should the LA have to fund respite.

Holiday clubs and wrap around care don't exist for even non challenging SEN children.

Looking after children during lockdown and working and teaching was a breeze in comparison Hmm

Mumofsend · 22/01/2022 16:15

@trunktoes mine haw gradually learnt how to manage in environments that she struggles with. She has learnt how to engage socially with others. She has learnt how to do tasks others set. She has proved to us all she is actually astonishingly smart. I suspect she will have some form of job where she uses her mathematical/science brain behind the scenes because maths and science make sense to her but social expectations are baffling. It isnt instant and it does need the correct support in place. That support has to be in place or all children are failed.

Mumofsend · 22/01/2022 16:16

I really take offence to the comment you made earlier that children like my DD have no future. No Y3 child should ever be written off.

trunktoes · 22/01/2022 16:17

@Mumofsend at school one of my children has specialist provision for their dyslexia. That doesn't mean I am sending them to school for a break. I'm sending them to be educated - and that is partly why having a child kn their class that disrupts that is an issue. You can't justify having violent and disruptive kids in classrooms on the basis that their parents need a break

trunktoes · 22/01/2022 16:19

@Mumofsend that was absolutely not the point I was making and so apologies if that upset you. My point was a child such as the OP describes is not suited to that setting as such will not be getting what they need for their future and therefore the likelihood of them being able to have a successful outlook is limited. I was not saying all children like yours do not have a future. If they have education that fits their needs I am sure they can have an amazing future

SniffMyFeet · 22/01/2022 16:22

@Mumofsend Of course they need support but there is a lack of funds and too many hurdles to jump through so the children are just expected to tolerate it. Its not fair on any child whether they are the one that needs additional support or the one that needs protecting from the violence

Spikeyball · 22/01/2022 16:27

The no future comment means that people will have made up their minds about what sort of person you are. My child will never pass any exams and will never be independent. He still has a future.

trunktoes · 22/01/2022 16:34

@Spikeyball I think you are purposely misinterpreting what I am saying but that's your call. The outlook for someone like that child who hasn't had the opportunity to develop in the right setting is poor - the school isn't set up to manage that behaviour, he is not getting an education and his behaviour can't be managed to the point that it will be acceptable in wider society later in life. The outlook for children disrupted by this child who could achieve in that setting is being impacted. If you disagree I can't say it any other way

MNSEN · 22/01/2022 16:34

I have enjoyed seeing the comments about children with no future (beyond jail and violent offending) and those which say 'these children grow up in homes where blah blah lazy reference to child abuse'.

Yes, there are children with SEN who live in chaotic violent homes. There are also many who absolutely don't and a myriad of reasons why they have difficulty coping.

But it's always nice to see what people are thinking Hmm

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