What can realistically be done with violent kids in classroom?

[EdithRea]

Since Reception one boy has been a problem in the classroom. Aggressive, swearing, tears down the displays, rips up children's work, throws chairs, uses the f and c word at the teacher and screams throughout class.

Instead of regaling me with nice tales of crayoning or writing, my youngest instead reported that various male teachers from around the school frequently have to be called to the classroom to restrain this child. Hearing a 4 year old talk about such things was a shock, but it became our day to day reality. The boy is violent to classmates and I told her to keep as far away as she could, to stay with a teacher if necessary, as he 'looks up girls skirts' and tears out their hair.

He has been known to gleefully kill insects in front of the other children, which left my child utterly distraught at the time. One was a butterfly.

A few years pass. The kid remains problematic and class projects and plans are cancelled due to him. The entire playground needs to be split up especially to 'keep him away' from starting fights with other boys.

Pandemic hits, homeworking, I slowly forget The Kid. She goes back, and I am reminded of The Kid. The displays are torn down again. More chairs thrown. I see the child arriving at school. He's obviously much larger. Male teachers are still brought in to control him. He is often removed from the room and taught elsewhere, meaning no teaching assistant cover for the class.

Today a science fair type treat for the children was ruined because instead of building their experiments and displaying their models, the boy went around the room and tore everyone's work to shreds, and again had to be restrained and removed by male teachers. I reiterate that only because it must be his size, or an indicator as to the level of his aggression, that they call the blokes in.

Back in the days that school trips existed, her class never went. They were supposed to get 'a treat' last year which got cancelled after The Kid smashed a newly refurbished bathroom up, tearing up tiles and plaster.

What can realistically be done? There's been years of this now, and my child sounds so bloody upset and defeated. School is miserable. Class is just a battle between keeping the kids safe from this boy. They're watching adults struggling with a raging boy instead of learning. She's worn down by the most shocking, vile language. She's afraid of the chair-throwing and table upending. And when he's 11 it's going to be a lot worse.

I don't know what can realistically be done. At some point the school should surely admit they cannot cope. But they might not. And in that sense maybe I can ask my kid be moved to another class. But that doesn't help the 28 kids left behind.

There's no spaces at other schools. Very long waiting lists. Can't g o private.

@MyOtherCarIsAPorsche

I have a large scar above my nose (4 stitches) caused by a boy who threw a chime bar at me, despite his 1-1 help (not reacting quick enough). He thought it was hilarious that I had so much blood running down my face causing me to splutter as it was going in my mouth. This caused yet another evacuation of my class - they were used to it.

He had come from a school where he threw a chair at his teacher and she miscarried the next day.

I had to evacuate my class regularly.

He had support on a morning from a man from a specialist school. He was fairly compliant on a morning. At lunchtime the man went and in the afternoon his support was a 1-1 from school as per his 'statement'. His Ritalin wore off by lunchtime and he didn't get a second dose. Apparently it wasn't appropriate.

It was like watching a Punch and Judy show from my point of view (teacher) as the 1-1 support wrestled with resources and him at the back of the class every afternoon. Together, the noise they made was not compatible with learning.

He didn't take part in any lesson and never produced any work.

It wasn't fair on the rest of the class. The disruption was constant. The head teacher refused to have him sent to her office - if the 1-1 took him out of class he would run riot banging on the doors and windows of other classes.

Lots of children were injured by this boy. He burst a child's eardrum. He dislocated a child's shoulder. He would kick the legs out from under children when they walked past him. He smashed a child's head into the fire alarm and the fire service turned up. His verbal abuse was beyond anything I'd heard from a primary school child. He tore clothes by swinging children round by their uniform. When asked why he had attacked one particular girl several times (her mother had called the police) he said it was because he liked her hair. No action was taken.

Parents would complain endlessly.

His afternoon 1-1 would beg and plead with him to try to calm him down.

Meeting after meeting would be arranged to discuss strategies but the support he had in the morning would always insist that he was compliant, implying that the school was trying to expel him and put the responsibility for him on a different school. We were his 3rd school within the LA and he had previously moved from a different local authority. So it appeared he never had a full year in any one school.

I got the police involved with regards to the assault - the second time the police had dealt with him whilst at our school. It went nowhere as he said that he had not intended the chime bar to hit me.

I dreaded going to school.

He was there for two terms until the end of year 6 was reached. His mother complained when the head teacher decided not to include him in the yr 6 leavers end of year treat.

We heard that he was the same in High School and excluded fairly quickly. He always ended up being placed back in other high schools and taxied about because provision was getting further and further away from his home.

My head teacher told me he was dismissed from the Army. He was in a young offenders institute. He's now in an adult prison. He's 22 and had beaten his pregnant girlfriend unconscious.

I'm not sure who was failed.

I thought that it was the staff and the children, who had to tread on egg shells and wrangle his behaviour. We were scared of him.

I would like to think that the safety of staff and other children would be put before a single child.

He caused mayhem.

He still does.

Violence does not belong in the classroom, never mind in wider society. Why should other children/school staff have to put up with it when it's not 'put up with' outside of school, in the general community?

Don't talk to me about 'unmet' needs. I was the SENCO there for 20 yrs and I bent over backwards to meet the needs of hundreds of children and successfully kept them in mainstream school as long as parents were in agreement. I arranged transitions to high schools and had great relationships with many other professionals and agencies involved. I mentored other SENCOs for the LA. I was very experienced in this area - I have two children (now adults) who had Statements of Special Educational Needs (now EHCPs).

People have to accept that some children need to be educated in more specialist provision.

Holy smokes

I really do think that teachers need to take a stand and refuse to teach aggressive children. Aggressive adults are removed forcibly from hospitals but schools are a free for all.
It’s beyond ridiculous. And teachers do not go into teaching at 22/23 with enough training or experience to manage extremely aggressive children. Why would anyone want to deal with that every day? Why should they have to ? There are easier ways to earn £35 k.

@ConsuelaHammock

That’s exactly the point I’m trying to make Sadpaper. Parents won’t accept that their child needs more help than a mainstream school can provide and yet they still fight for it!? And the child ends up in care or prison, on the streets or dead. Children are being failed by everyone who doesn’t want to be seen to be the bad guy. Teachers tiptoe around them and they get rewarded for being good for a day when other children are good for years. I don’t think the current education system suits these children at all. I genuinely don’t know what the answer is though. And yes they are only children . Angry children who become angry and dangerous adults.

No.

They are usually very aware their child needs more than a mainstream school can provide, getting that though is the problem, the chances of getting a specialist school when it's needed is slim to none. You either wait for years, you move your child to a school out of county to wherever has a place if it exists (because every area is in the same boat) or you get told no and your child has to struggle on disrupting the kids in mainstream school.

It's not the parents that are (usually) the problem, it's everything being cut to the bone and you having to make do with the shitty substandard service that's on offer for kids with additional needs.

@ConsuelaHammock many parents fight for specialist not mainstream but there are very few places. My DS has SEN and I had to really fight to get him into the right specialist school, he’s at the closest suitable which is 40 miles away from home. It took a long time to find because he doesn’t fit into any of the schools (SEMH, SLD or MLD) in my LA.

Download a copy of 'Keeping Children Safe in Education 2021' and highlight the school's failings, then present this to both the Head and the Governors. Look particularly at the section on 'Child on child abuse'. They are failing to Safeguard your child and the others in the class. Given that Safeguarding trumps everything else in schools, they cannot fail to take this seriously. Next stop Ofsted.

my dd had that for 3 years. Child behaved like a dog, barking, biting, pooing on floor, also violent- throwing chairs and wrecking classroom over and over. DD would often say 'we had to go outside'get under desks etc.'
Nothing was done until child was raging in head's office, head bent down to speak at eye level and had 4 front teeth kicked in.
Child care from perfectly decent family, well known and liked in the village for years.

@ConsuelaHammock

I really do think that teachers need to take a stand and refuse to teach aggressive children. Aggressive adults are removed forcibly from hospitals but schools are a free for all. It’s beyond ridiculous. And teachers do not go into teaching at 22/23 with enough training or experience to manage extremely aggressive children. Why would anyone want to deal with that every day? Why should they have to ? There are easier ways to earn £35 k.

Ok. So when all the teachers 'make a stand' Where do you propose the 'agressive' kids go for their education? do you just mean mainstream teachers? or are you including specialist teachers too? It's not quite clear from your post.

Have you thought your plan through? I'm just wondering what happens to these kids? You didn't mention that bit, or do you recommend they are chucked in a skip and set on fire?

Obviously problem out of sight out of mind?

You do realise a lot of these kids I'd wager most of them have some kind of additional needs, disabilities etc.

Aggressive behaviour is unfortunately sometimes what comes with some of these conditions.

@XingMing

ANd people wonder why teachers leave teaching.......... why do they stay in it?

Most schools would not tolerate this child's behaviour for this long. This is a failure of management. The boy should have been removed from the school long ago because he is disrupting the education of an entire class and because the boy himself is sinking into a vortex of wilder behaviour. He needs specialist handling and the rest of the class needs to be reassured that school is a safe place and that is fun to learn things. If things do not improve, perhaps you should consider withdrawing your daughter from this school and sending her where projects and singing and reading books and going on trips are rich with enjoyment. BTW has no one suggested to the HT that the boy should be left in school while the rest of the class goes on school trips. Blanket punishment is frowned on and in effect all the children are being punished for what this boy does.

@danni0509

I understand your perspectives, but at the same time, why is it fair on the others that want to learn, ? We are ment to be raising the next generations of workers in various fields, why should the ones that need more help due to various issues, hold back the rest of the class if the current staff are unable to provide the extra support ?

Danni- I’m talking about teachers in mainstream schools. They are not trained nor do they want to teach aggressive children. I’m guessing that more specialist schools need to be opened or the children need to remain at home / be home educated.
I don’t know what the answer is and tbh I don’t care when 29 children’s education is suffering because of one child.
Do you think that teachers in mainstream schools should accept the behaviour described by the op? Why is that ?

I don’t care where the aggressive kids go tbh. They’re not learning anything at school so what’s the point?

[quote trunktoes]@inheritancetrack true though [/quote]
100% true

In the space of 3 months and this was just my son. Punched in the face, burst lip black eye, strangled from behind, pushed down stairs, pushed to the ground, head smacked off tarmac, kicked in the genitals and legs. Multiple classroom evacuations I have a lot of sympathy for the child concerned but I this was my son being physically assaulted then asked by staff to be tolerant. Fuck that.

Complain, complain and.complain some more. I'm amazed you haven't raised this with the school. I'm a mum with sen kids who have 1:1. No child should have work destroyed etc. The school has badly let everyone down. It could also be parents are in denial and refusing to engage

[quote inheritancetrack]@MNSEN
101 assumptions there based on nothing. OP doesn't know the child's status and neither do you. It is not illegal to exclude a child. You are assuming the school has made attempts to meet his needs. You don't know this. The school have had years to address any additional needs and after such a long time he is still terrorising other children. For his wellbeing and that of the other children he needs to be excluded and his needs addressed. Ultimately the school/head teacher have a duty of care to ensure the safety, the 'physical' safety, of the other children. To me and most right minded people that is paramount. Once that is ensured then the local authority needs to pull its finger out and help this child with a diagnosis of some type via CAMHS. They've had years to get help and OP is rightly outraged her DD is suffering. I'll say again, one child's wellbeing does not trump the wellbeing and safety of 29 other children, just because they have a SN.

And to clarify, the vast majority of SN children (I have one) are not violent and do not hurt insects.[/quote]
The behaviour is clearly SEN. There's no other possible explanation for the behaviour in a young child.

The SEN clearly isn't being effectively supported, if it were the child wouldn't be attacking the school and people in it.

You can't exclude a child who has SEN that isn't being effectively supported.

Ergo the exclusion would be illegal.

Absolutely none of that that is an assumption.

Exclusions are sanctions, not something you do for the child's wellbeing. He needs to be effectively supported either in the school or on alternative provision. Not excluded.

I haven't said his needs trump anyone's. I have said that he needs to be effectively supported for both his sake and that of his classmates.

I don't think most children with SEN hurt insects either.

And you be polite but firm. My child took materials for a project and were destroyed by another pupil. This pupil has also done x,y,z. What are you going to keep my child safe

@Georgeskitchen

I'm mystified as to how long the school has allowed this to continue . Surely there must have been many complaints from parents. The parents need to band together and demand that this child is removed from the school immediately

You can't demand a child is removed, school cannot discuss children that are not your own. OP can ask how they are going to keep her child safe, how they are going to maintain her rights to a safe and happy environment

@TeenPlusCat

It sounds like the child is being badly let down. From your description it sounds as if they need at least a 1-1 (and as you haven't mentioned one I presume they don't).

You need to write to the school from the point of view of your child. e.g.

• they don't feel safe because ...
• their learning is constantly being disrupted ...

Ask what steps are being put in place to ensure the safety of your child and to protect their learning.

The other child isn't your issue, the impact they are having on your child is.

This!!

[quote Mumofsend]@MNSEN Her starting point 2 years ago was hysterical going in every single day. She was just running off when overwhelmed and seeking out small hidey holes. They would find her curled up under chairs and in between shelves and all sorts of places, the smaller the better. Early year 1 (after march-july in class with 6 children then going back to 30 in the september) we hit a crisis point where she had the class evacuated as she had a screaming throwing meltdown. She had only managed an hour in class for 10 days. I was called in and she was under a table sobbing. She had bit a member of staff to the point of breaking the skin. This was aged 5. We put her on a part timetable and built her up very slowly, at her pace and with a huge amount of work between me and school.

Now we are at an odd point where she is happy going into school and she isn't running off anymore so in that regards, she is doing a huge amount better. She is happy in school, has 2 dedicated 1-1s split between AM and PM. She does the mornings in class with a scheduled sensory break and an extra if needed. Her 1-1s are both excellent at spotting the early getting jiggly signs and all she needs is a lap of the playground and it resets her.

Afternoons are more hit and miss. She does well if it's something like science or geography. She struggles with PE and things that are too unstructured. She is probably doing 50% of the afternoons in class. School realised she struggles with afternoons so her SALT and reading interventions are both in the afternoon to kill two birds with one stone. If she is doing well in class they will skip the reading intervention to promote her being in class instead.

It is slowly working and she is happy which has been my focus. She can't do it at all without her dedicated 1-1 support.

I got her plan rewritten summer term last year to include the correct training for her 1-1s which has probably made the biggest difference.

Now that she is happy and settled with the set up any move has to be better for her for it to be sensible to do so.

We looked at resource bases too as that theoretically would probably be the dream solution for her but all the ones within distance are unit for mornings, mainstream for PMs and she needs the opposite so would be spending PMs alone if in the unit.

It is a minefield.[/quote]
I see the problem with the resource base. Is it possible that she'd be better regulated after the morning though and would cope with the afternoon better?

Have you got an OT? The hiding under things could be flight or fight but it also might be a sensory thing around needing to feel squished. Could the school provide her with a small place (under the stairs with some cushions or something) and a weighted blanket as a safe space?

Sorry, I get I'm asking a lot of questions about her, feel free not to answer! She sounds like she's struggling a bit and it can be hard to know what to do for the best.

Getting the 1-2-1 properly trained was good thinking, it's amazing how many schools just think another adult doing the same thing is going to make all the difference.

It's not they don't want to learn !!! They have difficulties

@ConsuelaHammock my own son is in a specialist school, mainstream couldn't cope with him, he couldn't cope with them, so it's not about my child. He's in the correct type of setting for him and that's that. (Just as an FYI he didn't disrupt any other kids in mainstream, he didn't get the chance, he was in his own room with only adults, for 2 years (until we got him a specialist school with an available place, yep that's how long it took) no child interaction, no friends, nothing. Just adults who he called his friends, what did you do today ds, 'I played with miss xxxx very inclusive a bit like you and your attitude actually)

My issue with you hence why I'm pulling up your posts is, this is exactly why @Liveandlove91 was getting pissed off earlier, and she was accused of being aggressive / rude etc (actually you'll find the word 'frustrated' would better describe her posts, but since the parents accusing her of being rude weren't parents of children with additional needs, you / they wouldn't understand the 'frustration' of a system that constantly works against you and your child)

You don't care what happens to the kids with additional needs who are aggressive due to their disabilities. You said it yourself, 'I don't care where they go tbh'

BUT you want the SEND parent to care about your child's education not being disrupted.

Fuck the disabled child's education as long as your child's being educated? why is it 29 v 1. Why do all children not matter? Why do you not vent your frustrations at the government who have slashed funding to the bare bones and caused this in the first place? Every child deserves an education. It's not the parents fault if there aren't enough specialist schools to accommodate.

(I do care about other children's education actually, but that's because Im not a giant arsehole, I don't want my ds disrupting other children's valuable learning time) even if other giant arseholes don't care about my 'aggressive' DISABLED son.

And if I was a parent of an ordinary child, I wouldn't want my own child getting hurt, of course not, but I wouldn't be on a forum telling all teachers to take a stand and not teach the ones who get aggressive due to additional needs.

Anyway good night. 2 hours past my bedtime and a prescription now needed for blood pressure medication! 🤣

"I don’t care where the aggressive kids go tbh. They’re not learning anything at school so what’s the point?"

Your child could be the aggressive child.

@danni0509

Anyway good night. 2 hours past my bedtime and a prescription now needed for blood pressure medication! 🤣

Sweet dreams