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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

What can realistically be done with violent kids in classroom?

403 replies

EdithRea · 21/01/2022 17:06

Since Reception one boy has been a problem in the classroom. Aggressive, swearing, tears down the displays, rips up children's work, throws chairs, uses the f and c word at the teacher and screams throughout class.

Instead of regaling me with nice tales of crayoning or writing, my youngest instead reported that various male teachers from around the school frequently have to be called to the classroom to restrain this child. Hearing a 4 year old talk about such things was a shock, but it became our day to day reality. The boy is violent to classmates and I told her to keep as far away as she could, to stay with a teacher if necessary, as he 'looks up girls skirts' and tears out their hair.

He has been known to gleefully kill insects in front of the other children, which left my child utterly distraught at the time. One was a butterfly.

A few years pass. The kid remains problematic and class projects and plans are cancelled due to him. The entire playground needs to be split up especially to 'keep him away' from starting fights with other boys.

Pandemic hits, homeworking, I slowly forget The Kid. She goes back, and I am reminded of The Kid. The displays are torn down again. More chairs thrown. I see the child arriving at school. He's obviously much larger. Male teachers are still brought in to control him. He is often removed from the room and taught elsewhere, meaning no teaching assistant cover for the class.

Today a science fair type treat for the children was ruined because instead of building their experiments and displaying their models, the boy went around the room and tore everyone's work to shreds, and again had to be restrained and removed by male teachers. I reiterate that only because it must be his size, or an indicator as to the level of his aggression, that they call the blokes in.

Back in the days that school trips existed, her class never went. They were supposed to get 'a treat' last year which got cancelled after The Kid smashed a newly refurbished bathroom up, tearing up tiles and plaster.

What can realistically be done? There's been years of this now, and my child sounds so bloody upset and defeated. School is miserable. Class is just a battle between keeping the kids safe from this boy. They're watching adults struggling with a raging boy instead of learning. She's worn down by the most shocking, vile language. She's afraid of the chair-throwing and table upending. And when he's 11 it's going to be a lot worse.

I don't know what can realistically be done. At some point the school should surely admit they cannot cope. But they might not. And in that sense maybe I can ask my kid be moved to another class. But that doesn't help the 28 kids left behind.

There's no spaces at other schools. Very long waiting lists. Can't g o private.

OP posts:
inheritancetrack · 22/01/2022 10:44

Explain to your son he needs this safe space and it's not a reward for bad behaviour, but he certainly should need restraint and removal like this.

shouldn't that should read.

LakieLady · 22/01/2022 10:46

@Motherofalittledragon

This type of thing is happening in my DS class, a boy is running riot and male teachers are called in to restrain and remove him. He destroys all the other childrens stuff and hurts them.. what does this boy get, his very own shepherds hut and a garden that no one else can go near. And like my DS asks why does he get nice things for being horrible and hurting us.
And do you explain to your DS that the child with the problems has that "nice thing" because he can't cope with being in a busy classroom, and has to be on his own so he can't disrupt lessons and hurt other children?

It's isolation, whether it's called that or not, and not a reward.

Mumofsend · 22/01/2022 10:50

@Motherofalittledragon

This type of thing is happening in my DS class, a boy is running riot and male teachers are called in to restrain and remove him. He destroys all the other childrens stuff and hurts them.. what does this boy get, his very own shepherds hut and a garden that no one else can go near. And like my DS asks why does he get nice things for being horrible and hurting us.
Reframe the hut to your DS to what it is. It isnt a nice playroom. It is a safe place to keep the children safe and he can when he needs to be on his own.
MogsBestestFurball · 22/01/2022 10:50

That sounds awful. It is stories like this from Mumsnet that are making me consider private primary for DC. I'll be in poverty in retirement, but no way would I be able to send DC in every day to this.

VelvetChairGirl · 22/01/2022 10:50

@XingMing

VelvetChairGirl, you seriously think that a 22 year old fresh from university and a one year PGCE course (which is very hard work) is equipped to cope with that kind of behaviour? Or should be able to? Frankly most prison officers would resort to physical restraint fsced with anyone so out of control.
then they need training dont they, clearly they are not getting enough or not cut out for the job.

if you are sitting there alone with 30 kids you cant expect them all to be angels. I am aware that its very hard work I have had to look after upto 6 kids on school trips, I've delt with kids that bite themselves until they bleed when they dont get their own way, bully others or just constantly try to walk off, everyone is different thats life you have to adapt and change strategies for different people.

and my son isnt even bad I have been to SEN groups and felt very out of place and like I cant complain because what other parents have to deal with is horrible and frequently they have zero support from local authorities or anyone, I feel most for a grandmother I used to see at the groups often she would often burst into tears she was trying to look after her ASD grandson on her own and on her state pension she got a piddly carers allowance that didnt cover all the help he and she needed at all.

I count myself lucky my son was actually the poster boy for the primary he was trotted out whenever someone like Micheal Rosen or the local MP came round because he was top in the school for maths, english and reading comprehension plus he's very cute.

he is fine with the actual work he is above expectation in maths etc at secondary now, he is in years 7 I have been told his maths is on a par with year 11s, the main problem is he has no patients and a quick temper he is terrible when the red mist descends, he finishes work fast then sits there and stews because he's not allowed to read his magazine/book etc while he wants for the class to end and everyone else is so slow.

as for CAMHs he has been on a waiting list for ASD assessment for 6 years, he should have been on it before he even started school but they wouldn't listen to the worries of a first time mum with no experience of children, it took the school, me, the GP and SAFE team to get him a EHCP and on the CAMHs list and even then they chucked him off it after a house fire blaming that for his behaviour and we had to fight to get him back on the list again. I doubt he will ever get to the top of the list I think its a scam, I think he will hit 18 get taken off CAMHs and go straight to the GP and get an adult assessment within weeks of doing so.

trunktoes · 22/01/2022 10:53

@fizzypiggy but that's different because they are in a specialised setting which meets there needs and therefore unlock their potential. I don't think my comment was at all disgusting. In a Mainstream Setting where the child is distuptjve they are unlikely to progress in the way they should and it is stopping children that could progress in that setting from doing so. I also think that trips for children do help them reach their potential. One of my friends became a specialist in a field as a result of a school trip aged 9 because she became interested.

MogsBestestFurball · 22/01/2022 10:53

And why the hell is it OPs job to fix this?

I don't understand why parents in this country are not out on the streets protesting for better education funding. It is cuts by this Tory government that has created this dire situation and so many other like it

Pebblex · 22/01/2022 10:59

@Ionlydomassiveones

This is this ludicrous idea that all children, whatever their challenges, can be taught in a mainstream classroom with a limited budget.

Ideally this child would have 1-2-1 supervision, he would have nurture provision and family intervention. He is being left to manage powerful and destructive emotions in the only way he knows how. It’s not his fault but I totally understand your frustration - I would’ve moved my dd long before now (and did, for a lot less than your dd is putting up with).

The problem is, any intervention with these kids is only really a sticking plaster at school. Children are growing up in chaotic, abusive homes where the so-called adults don’t give a flying shit. Even when agencies get involved.

My solution would be greater investment for intervention with the families and if they don’t comply enough to see evidence that their child starts thriving, serious sanctions.

I would seriously think about complaining - complaining actually helps the school build the case that they are ‘not meeting needs’ but ultimately I’d try and move heaven and hell to get your dd out of there. Give her a chance somewhere else.

I agree, what you say about the sticking plaster is so true…. but what ‘sanctions’ could be put in place in your solution?
lookMummyACow · 22/01/2022 11:21

What an awful and traumatic experience for your child.
I'd ask the school if they're providing counseling for the rest of the class!! Poor kids, they've been suffering for years. Theyll all be quite shaken up by this even if it isn't obvious. It's unbelievable. The child needs to be excluded. It isn't fair to everyone else. They need to safeguard the class and not punish them all because of thr little thug. If he looks up her skirt, make sure she knows to kick him in the nuts and scream for a teacher. And that it isn't her fault and deserves all the things they're missing out on. How could the school even justify making the whole class miss out on things due to him?!
Sounds awful, complain to everyone including ofstead. Massive safeguarding negligence on the schools part and quite frankly awful they'd punish them all. They're being punished enough having him in their class!!

Thatkid · 22/01/2022 11:26

I've namechanged for this- if you think you can 'out' me then please don't. Things are hard enough as it is

I have That Kid. He's in KS2, has a great smile, has a passion for life, loves his specialist subject and actually is a great kid to be around. He's loved to bits and doesn't have a horrendous home life. Siblings, pets, Mum and dad....

He has very complex needs. He's autistic amongst many, many other things. And has been in more than 4 mainstream schools now. He's struggling hugely in school and has a team of staff around him. Doesn't stop him doing all sorts of things though as he acts very quickly and with impunity.
Yes, children and staff have been hurt and property has been damaged.

Amd I am absolutely and totally horrified by his actions in school. I've realised that the only way to make things better is to work closely with the school so I am well aware of what goes on in school. I don't think there has been a week since September when I haven't been in touch with the school about a serious incident happening.

And I am absolutely and totally mortified.

I have been petitioning the local authority for 2 years now that he needs a specialist school. Despite being permanently excluded from more than one school and several fixed term exclusions in his current school the local authority still won't have it. Their answer is that children MUST be educated in mainstream schools. All they keep on doing is increasing his support- he essentially has 2:1 support now funded through an EHCP.
If it wasn't for his headteacher who is determined not to permanently exclude him unless a major incident happens and his SENCO who is nothing short of a miracle worker things would be very, very different. Like other people have said it isn't easy to permanently exclude a child but I know it'll happen eventually in his current school. The school are going to end up calling an ambulance sooner or later for someone who has been injured by him.

And I am absolutely and totally mortified.

The fallout from when a child is permanently excluded is immense and affects the whole family. When he was last permanently excluded (illegally but the school didn't give a toss) I lost my job and ended up in a very dark place mental health wise. Things are a lot better now but it isn't a place I want to return to.

The system is shit, broken and doesn't meet the needs of the families its supposed to be helping.

Spikeyball · 22/01/2022 11:28

I hope all those with the pitchforks out weren't using vulnerable children arguments to keep schools open.

cattypussclaw · 22/01/2022 11:30

We have a Y3 child at school who is violent. Ideally needs two TAs but no one the school recruits stays more than a few days. I've filled in and worked a few days with this child and it's a nightmare, you daren't look away for an instant or you'll get a chair wrapped round your head. The child has massive issues - ASD, global development delay (working barely at Foundation level), ODD, the list is endless. There is no place in a mainstream primary for this child - we do not have the expertise to help - but parents refuse to consider a specialist school because of the stigma. The child plays separately at break and lunch time to protect other children. The parents call this "segregation". The school are desperate to get this child into a more suitable setting but parents are fighting us tooth and nail. We are now being threatened with solicitor's letters because it is felt that we are discriminating against this child because of their disabilities. It's utter lunacy.

saleorbouy · 22/01/2022 11:45

As a group of parents you need to confront the school management and tell them that you and your children have consistently made allowances for child X to maintain their place in mainstream education.
Child X behaviour has not changed or improved so now it is time to put the other children in the class first as they are in a disruptive class, seeing violence, having their work destroyed, missing out on class treats and trips etc.
Join forces and ensure child X is removed into a unit more suitable for their type of behaviour.
How long is it until a child is harmed in class by child X, the school cannot ensure their safety or quality of learning in the current setup.
Her teacher must dread her work environment. Child X must have greater needs that the school can't deliver.

Spikeyball · 22/01/2022 11:52

I know parents who have refused special school because the one the child is being pushed towards isn't suitable. Using the right to mainstream prevents this whilst the parents battle for a suitable one. If there were sufficient suitable specialist schools and the LA weren't happy to shove the child anywhere (because it is cheapest) no matter that it is not suitable, they wouldn't need to.

VelvetChairGirl · 22/01/2022 12:00

@XingMing

I'd disagree that the interests of the delinquent should be considered first. In my book the 29 other kids should be the priority. Universal provision means the majority needs prevail. The miscreant should be in a PRU.
Delinquents and miscreants?

what an unpleasant person you are I hope you dont work anywhere near children and I would hate to be your child if you use that kind of language about SEN kids.

MabelsApron · 22/01/2022 12:05

OP, you need to complain and glad you’ve got a plan to do so.

I went to school with a kid like this. His parents fought the school tirelessly to keep him there as they couldn’t cope with him at home. Understandable but it meant they were letting young children take the fall instead. They had no interest in the other kids, their only concern was that he was out of the house and that they got a break. He was eventually excluded but it took years, and even then it was really only because he got so big that he couldn’t be restrained. Horrible situation all around but it makes me angry that kids are having to go to school like this. Adults wouldn’t be expected to suffer this at work, why should they? Who is looking out for their needs?

Thatkid · 22/01/2022 12:10

If anyone is thinking about getting a group of parents together to confront a parent, don't. I get that you're hacked off because nothings being done. I get that you want results. I get that you're children are being hurt and that's not OK. And actually if it was my child being hurt then I wouldn't be too happy either. What you can't see though is all the 'behind the scenes' stuff that's going on, and no I won't be discussing this on the playground with you either.

It is immensely upsetting to be confronted by a lynch mob just beyond the school gates. It's It's more upsetting when I had Thatkid with me.

The police deem this kind of thing to be harassment as well.

Spikeyball · 22/01/2022 12:11

"I went to school with a kid like this. His parents fought the school tirelessly to keep him there as they couldn’t cope with him at home."

Do you think they should have just have accepted that their child stay home and not be educated? Is that how you feel about your own children?

lemmein · 22/01/2022 12:19

My 4 year old GS is like this (minus the bad language)

His mum (my DD) wants him to be in a more specialised setting but it's just not that easy. He's currently awaiting a diagnosis for ASD, the school have been proactive in advocating for him to get more support, but it's just a waiting game unfortunately. My daughter is very aware of the impact my GS had on the other kids learning, and how his behaviour takes up the teachers time (plural, it's always at least 4 teachers!). She's even offered to go in the school every day with him to deal with any behaviours, or bring him home when needed. Every single person involved in my GS's education is fighting for him; to others it looks like he's left to run riot but there's so much work going on in the background to get him in a more appropriate setting. It's beyond stressful.

He only does an hour in school now and is 1:1. He's never done a full day since he started.

My DD is a brilliant mum, she's always there for my GS - does everything in her power to support the school. He comes from a good home, has never witnessed violence - and actually is one of the most kind hearted kids ever, he just has zero control of his emotions and no one seems to know how to help him Sad

What I would say though is please do raise your concerns with the school. It could actually help this little boy, and in turn, your DD. My GS case is going to an inclusion panel - school are collecting all evidence they can to show he needs to be in a more specialised setting; complaints from other parents would actually help the process.

MrsKDB · 22/01/2022 12:26

You need to write to school keeping all mention off the other child out of it and focusing on the impact / support available for your daughter. I’m surprised you’ve put up with it for so long. Her needs, voice and well being are important and it’s your job to advocate for her.

Anna10309 · 22/01/2022 12:27

Do you think they should have just have accepted that their child stay home and not be educated? Well yes. If he is doing what the op described, then this violence should not be accepted at the expense of 29 other kids. Do people think it's ok then that kids go to school and could be bashed around but it's fine as long as this one is educated? I'm absolutely horrified that a child like this should be in school and everyone else needs to just 'understand'.

danni0509 · 22/01/2022 12:28

@MabelsApron

OP, you need to complain and glad you’ve got a plan to do so.

I went to school with a kid like this. His parents fought the school tirelessly to keep him there as they couldn’t cope with him at home. Understandable but it meant they were letting young children take the fall instead. They had no interest in the other kids, their only concern was that he was out of the house and that they got a break. He was eventually excluded but it took years, and even then it was really only because he got so big that he couldn’t be restrained. Horrible situation all around but it makes me angry that kids are having to go to school like this. Adults wouldn’t be expected to suffer this at work, why should they? Who is looking out for their needs?

His parents fought the school to keep him there so they could get him out of the house so they could have have a break? Well that’s one way of looking at it but there’s another way of looking at it also.

You know, making sure that he was attending a school and receiving that thing called ‘education’ that he was legally entitled too?

How do you know they had not tirelessly tried for a specialist school place for him but weren’t accepted and had to ‘make do’ ?

MabelsApron · 22/01/2022 12:30

@Spikeyball

"I went to school with a kid like this. His parents fought the school tirelessly to keep him there as they couldn’t cope with him at home."

Do you think they should have just have accepted that their child stay home and not be educated? Is that how you feel about your own children?

He wasn’t being educated - and nor was anyone else. I think they should have worked on identifying a place where the needs of their child could be properly met.

Maybe they were doing that for years and it just never bore fruit but he was expelled in the end so they presumably had to find somewhere else at that point. It’s horrible but the answer isn’t just to shrug and say, well my child deserves to be in this school even if it’s not working out for anyone.

I don’t have kids. Not sure why that’s relevant.

MabelsApron · 22/01/2022 12:32

@danni0509 My response above covers this. (And yes, they told other parents who’d complained that he needed to be in school as they couldn’t cope with him at home 24/7 and needed the break.)

Spikeyball · 22/01/2022 12:39

Do you think they should have just have accepted that their child stay home and not be educated?

"Well yes. If he is doing what the op described, then this violence should not be accepted at the expense of 29 other kids."

Well that is not going to happen. People put the needs of their own child first. As is shown by all those saying he shouldn't be in school because their own child matters more. How about directing your annoyance at governments that fail to support vulnerable children adequately.

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