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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

What can realistically be done with violent kids in classroom?

403 replies

EdithRea · 21/01/2022 17:06

Since Reception one boy has been a problem in the classroom. Aggressive, swearing, tears down the displays, rips up children's work, throws chairs, uses the f and c word at the teacher and screams throughout class.

Instead of regaling me with nice tales of crayoning or writing, my youngest instead reported that various male teachers from around the school frequently have to be called to the classroom to restrain this child. Hearing a 4 year old talk about such things was a shock, but it became our day to day reality. The boy is violent to classmates and I told her to keep as far away as she could, to stay with a teacher if necessary, as he 'looks up girls skirts' and tears out their hair.

He has been known to gleefully kill insects in front of the other children, which left my child utterly distraught at the time. One was a butterfly.

A few years pass. The kid remains problematic and class projects and plans are cancelled due to him. The entire playground needs to be split up especially to 'keep him away' from starting fights with other boys.

Pandemic hits, homeworking, I slowly forget The Kid. She goes back, and I am reminded of The Kid. The displays are torn down again. More chairs thrown. I see the child arriving at school. He's obviously much larger. Male teachers are still brought in to control him. He is often removed from the room and taught elsewhere, meaning no teaching assistant cover for the class.

Today a science fair type treat for the children was ruined because instead of building their experiments and displaying their models, the boy went around the room and tore everyone's work to shreds, and again had to be restrained and removed by male teachers. I reiterate that only because it must be his size, or an indicator as to the level of his aggression, that they call the blokes in.

Back in the days that school trips existed, her class never went. They were supposed to get 'a treat' last year which got cancelled after The Kid smashed a newly refurbished bathroom up, tearing up tiles and plaster.

What can realistically be done? There's been years of this now, and my child sounds so bloody upset and defeated. School is miserable. Class is just a battle between keeping the kids safe from this boy. They're watching adults struggling with a raging boy instead of learning. She's worn down by the most shocking, vile language. She's afraid of the chair-throwing and table upending. And when he's 11 it's going to be a lot worse.

I don't know what can realistically be done. At some point the school should surely admit they cannot cope. But they might not. And in that sense maybe I can ask my kid be moved to another class. But that doesn't help the 28 kids left behind.

There's no spaces at other schools. Very long waiting lists. Can't g o private.

OP posts:
Onionpatch · 22/01/2022 12:40

@Anna10309 you dont really think children with disabilities should be sent home and not educated instead of given support and educated do you? I mean its ok to think the support in place isnt working for anyone, its ok to think there should be more support from cahms and more appropriate schools available and more funding etc but to just end at if i child is showing distressed behaviour linked to their disability at school they should just lose their right to an education entirely seems cruelm
Understanding doesnt mean accepting nothing can be done and putting up with it - it means seeing what the problem is so things can be improved.

VelvetChairGirl · 22/01/2022 12:46

@MogsBestestFurball

And why the hell is it OPs job to fix this?

I don't understand why parents in this country are not out on the streets protesting for better education funding. It is cuts by this Tory government that has created this dire situation and so many other like it

very true they have cut my LA funding by 63% where do people think all the money goes?

(well we know where it goes now, straight into ministers pockets)

trunktoes · 22/01/2022 12:47

@Spikeyball no / not my child matters more. 29 children matter more than one child

Anna10309 · 22/01/2022 12:48

Off course he deserves an education, but not at the expense of every other child. This isn't working for the child as well. I don't know what parent will be ok with their child going to school knowing they could be attacked. To me their safety is far greater than what he deserves or entitled to. Their safety.

Spikeyball · 22/01/2022 12:52

The parents won't think the other children matter more than their own child so they are not going to chose to keep him home.

I have already explained that when deciding on whether a child should be in a school it is the effect on other individual children that is considered ( that is what the law says) not on how many other children there are. Otherwise discrimatory actions would occur.

TheMadGardener · 22/01/2022 12:54

Written complaints from other parents are very useful when school are trying to compile enough evidence to prove that mainstream cannot meet a child's needs or safeguard other children, or that funding is needed for extra staff.

I used to work in a school where only one child had a EHCP because the school and SENDCO were not good at doing the paperwork and fighting for what some children needed.

I now work in a school with a brilliant SENDCO who has successfully applied for 28 EHCPs and never had one turned down.

Even so we have That Kid, now in Year 4, who is very often disregulated and violent and starts throwing chairs or hurting other children. We are a three form entry and there has been a flood of parents in his class since Year 1 asking if their child can be moved into one of the other two classes in the year group -and about five children have duly been moved and are now much happier in the other classes.

In our case there is progress as he now goes to a nuture group 4 afternoons a week and has a very good 1:1 who often takes him out so the other children in the class get more respite when they don't feel scared. We are hoping there will be a place for him in a more suitable non-mainstream setting in September.

You still get other children asking why That Kid gets to go out of class and do baking or gardening or football when the rest of the class, who behave well, are doing writing or maths. It's hard to explain to children that it might seem That Kid is getting treats but he has no friends and won't have the same life chances they will have.

BTW in my old school we had a girl who was That Kid but despite the school's efforts her mum refused to cooperate with applying for EHCP or contemplate anything but mainstream for her DD - she said her DD was an angel and was only violent, sweary, etc because it was the school's fault. She insisted her DD actually had no issues.
Then...the same parent warned us to watch out for her DS who was starting in our nursery "because he's a little shit, you'll have your hands full with that one!"
Staffroom: Shock Confused Sad

germsandcoffee · 22/01/2022 13:03

[quote Liveandlove91]@germsandcoffee . Nice name . Is your son in private school or mainstream if don't mind me asking x[/quote]
He moved to special school at age 7.
He's doing well there but he learned so much from his classmates in mainstream at the beginning it was still the best choice 🤷‍♀️

VelvetChairGirl · 22/01/2022 13:05

@Spikeyball

Do you think they should have just have accepted that their child stay home and not be educated?

"Well yes. If he is doing what the op described, then this violence should not be accepted at the expense of 29 other kids."

Well that is not going to happen. People put the needs of their own child first. As is shown by all those saying he shouldn't be in school because their own child matters more. How about directing your annoyance at governments that fail to support vulnerable children adequately.

parents need a break, as one teacher in the specialist place said to me when I asked what was the point in having the severely ASD kids there whom could never hope to be independent.

its to give the parents a break, if the parents never get time off it effects their mental health, its a lot cheaper to have the kids a few hours a day then have to put them into care 24/7 and treat the parents.

RocketFire7 · 22/01/2022 13:10

It’s not acceptable OP. I’d be straight in to see the head on Monday morning to explain that it can’t continue and that I’d be contacting the chair of governors and ofsted if it wasn’t sorted forthwith.

Onionpatch · 22/01/2022 13:10

@Anna10309 but my solution of actually supporting the child, whether its at that school or a different one ensures rveryones safety too and keeps that child educated.

I agree what they are doing is not working and people arent safe but why the hell are we all accepting a system where it can take years for support and funding is so scarce that things cant be implemented to make it safe. perfectly sane people think oh well lets just kick a child out of education entirely because its not safe, rather than lets make a system that works better.

I know that doesnt help OP on Monday morning and I truly hope things improve for them.

MNSEN · 22/01/2022 13:20

@inheritancetrack

I haven't said his needs trump anyone's. I have said that he needs to be effectively supported for both his sake and that of his classmates

@MNSEN You are totally saying this child's needs trump those of the 29 other children in the class.
The child isn't being adequately supported and the other children are suffering. You only talk about this child's needs, completely ignoring other children are being frightened, caused anxiety, losing out on education, and risking injury. Their safety is paramount, not the disruptive child. He needs to be taken out of the situation until adequate care is put in place, and I doubt it would be in MS.

I have literally said, in the quote you used, that the correct support will help both him and his classmates. I think maybe you are projecting what someone else has said and making assumptions about what I think? I don't actually think we disagree fundamentally except that I don't feel exclusion is the best next step here, I think the school is not supporting this child and that that is having a detrimental effect on everyone, but him most of all. Children behave like this when they are terrified IME.

I have actually been in the OP's situation when a child who had a 1-2-1 randomly punched my DD in the face as he passed her in a corridor. The point I made to the headteacher when I met with him the next day was that the boy's support had failed him and my DD in that moment and what would he (the HT) be doing to ensure that it never happened again and my DD was safe at school? That was far more effective than demanding an exclusion which would serve no-one.

I hope that clarifies my position Smile The correct support for children with complex needs helps everyone.

converseandjeans · 22/01/2022 13:21

Just word it how you have here. If it doesn't improve I would consider moving schools.

Sometimes a complaint will actually support the school as it is evidence when they try to apply for more support.

I feel sorry for the kid, the teacher & the rest of the class. It doesn't sound good for anyone.

Spikeyball · 22/01/2022 13:28

"parents need a break, as one teacher in the specialist place said to me when I asked what was the point in having the severely ASD kids there whom could never hope to be independent."

Some posters will think that parents of children with those needs are 'special parents' who don't need things like breaks.

My child has those needs and he does learn things at specialist school. He has come a long way in independence from the babysitting of mainstream school.

CrotchetyQuaver · 22/01/2022 13:30

I'd be looking to find a new school for my child asap however difficult/inconvenient that was. They only get one chance at school. I wouldn't be waiting for something to be done about the disruptive kid.

spanieleyes · 22/01/2022 13:31

All those saying "get the school to sort it", do you not think the school wants it sorted? Do you think that the teachers and teaching assistants want to be hit, kicked, punched and spat at on a daily basis? If only it were as simple as saying " get it sorted" .
If the school could resolve the situation, either correctly by obtaining an EHCP, sourcing suitably qualified staff who will stay more than 5 minutes, persuading the local authority that they are unable to meet needs, pressuring the LA into finding a suitable placement that had a space, persuading the parents that specialist provision is better, or simply by illegally excluding the child, then they would! Either the school is happy for this constant bombardment and aggression towards staff or they are trying desperately to get it sorted without much success!

SniffMyFeet · 22/01/2022 13:37

@MyOtherCarIsAPorsche I could have written your post myself Flowers
7 year olds bringing knives in, reception children telling the Head to fuck off, parents storming into the school, it was endless
You never give up though , you'll always look for some way to help. My health suffered in the end though

MummyWoodentop · 22/01/2022 13:50

Can't believe child throws furniture - imagine it hits a child causing a coma or paralysis, loss of speech. Absolutely crazy. Think I'd be approaching HT, Board of Governors, MP.

LakieLady · 22/01/2022 13:50

@MogsBestestFurball

And why the hell is it OPs job to fix this?

I don't understand why parents in this country are not out on the streets protesting for better education funding. It is cuts by this Tory government that has created this dire situation and so many other like it

I don't understand why there aren't more protests about the dreadful state of most of our public services -either, @MogsBestestFurball.

I can only think of two explanations:

  1. a lot of people think it's fine; and/or
  2. most of the rest can't be arsed to make a fuss
LakieLady · 22/01/2022 14:02

I think they should have worked on identifying a place where the needs of their child could be properly met

How many parents have the skills and resources to do that? And it would still need the LEA to fund it, so better by far for the LEA assess the need AND identify appropriate provision, at least that way it'll be something the LEA is willing and able to pay for.

Bollocks2Covid · 22/01/2022 14:03

I’ve worked with children like this. The schools hands will be completely tied, and I’m sorry if this offends anyone but they will also completely pander to this child and their family. It absolutely isn’t fair, and clearly this child isn’t in the right setting to meet their needs, but if they have a situation where the parents either refuse to engage and believes that there isn’t anything wrong or they are insisting on their child staying in mainstream (both things that I’ve encountered)then there is little they can do but go along with it. As other posters have pointed out it would be illegal to exclude the child and quite frankly the parents of these kids are usually the ones that make the biggest fuss and go on about their rights, discrimination etc.

lemmein · 22/01/2022 14:03

*I can only think of two explanations:

  1. a lot of people think it's fine; and/or
  2. most of the rest can't be arsed to make a fuss*

I think a lot of people are unaware of how dire it is until it affects them. Sure you'll hear a brief segment about it on the news/ social media/etc occasionally, but until you're experiencing it day in day out it doesn't really make an impact. I knew SEN provisions were poor, but now my DD is in the depths of it with my GS every single day it's more at the forefront of my mind.

Same as people were largely ignorant to how stretched the NHS is until covid. Or how poor elderly care is - or how people on disability benefits/universal credits are penalised. We largely only care about things that affect us.

Figgygal · 22/01/2022 14:10

This is utterly ridiculous why have you not challenged the school on this previously?

It’s not the child’s fault he’s in an unsuitable environment but that really is unacceptable to all the other children

My son is currently being bullied, threatened and now isolated due to the behaviour of an undiagnosed child with behaviour issues. We are on at school after every incident now as otherwise it’s been largely ignored by then. Only by making a nuisance of ourselves do we feel any positive management has been forthcoming.

Spikeyball · 22/01/2022 14:22

"As other posters have pointed out it would be illegal to exclude the child and quite frankly the parents of these kids are usually the ones that make the biggest fuss and go on about their rights, discrimination etc."

It is not unlawful to exclude for behaviour like this - as long as the law is followed in doing so. A school that has followed the law, send code of practice etc has nothing to fear about parents going on about "their rights, discrimation etc".

LakieLady · 22/01/2022 14:25

@lemmein

*I can only think of two explanations:
  1. a lot of people think it's fine; and/or
  2. most of the rest can't be arsed to make a fuss*

I think a lot of people are unaware of how dire it is until it affects them. Sure you'll hear a brief segment about it on the news/ social media/etc occasionally, but until you're experiencing it day in day out it doesn't really make an impact. I knew SEN provisions were poor, but now my DD is in the depths of it with my GS every single day it's more at the forefront of my mind.

Same as people were largely ignorant to how stretched the NHS is until covid. Or how poor elderly care is - or how people on disability benefits/universal credits are penalised. We largely only care about things that affect us.

I suspect you may be right. But how sad that we have become a society who "only care about things that affect us".

None of us can see the future, so we don't know what may affect us in years to come. Any of us could become ill, have an accident, lose a job or have some other drastic change of circumstance.

I worked in homelessness/homeless prevention for many years. I saw at first hand how a twist of fate can have a life-changing impact. How much more sensible if we cared about the provision for those with disabilities, the vulnerable, the poor etc before we needed any of that help ourselves.

CowboyJo · 22/01/2022 14:30

If the child is putting the others in danger, they should be excluded.

If the child's behaviour is constantly violent (especially if the parents of said child are not at all interested in taking responsibility), exclusion is absolutely the right thing to do.

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