What can realistically be done with violent kids in classroom?

[EdithRea]

Since Reception one boy has been a problem in the classroom. Aggressive, swearing, tears down the displays, rips up children's work, throws chairs, uses the f and c word at the teacher and screams throughout class.

Instead of regaling me with nice tales of crayoning or writing, my youngest instead reported that various male teachers from around the school frequently have to be called to the classroom to restrain this child. Hearing a 4 year old talk about such things was a shock, but it became our day to day reality. The boy is violent to classmates and I told her to keep as far away as she could, to stay with a teacher if necessary, as he 'looks up girls skirts' and tears out their hair.

He has been known to gleefully kill insects in front of the other children, which left my child utterly distraught at the time. One was a butterfly.

A few years pass. The kid remains problematic and class projects and plans are cancelled due to him. The entire playground needs to be split up especially to 'keep him away' from starting fights with other boys.

Pandemic hits, homeworking, I slowly forget The Kid. She goes back, and I am reminded of The Kid. The displays are torn down again. More chairs thrown. I see the child arriving at school. He's obviously much larger. Male teachers are still brought in to control him. He is often removed from the room and taught elsewhere, meaning no teaching assistant cover for the class.

Today a science fair type treat for the children was ruined because instead of building their experiments and displaying their models, the boy went around the room and tore everyone's work to shreds, and again had to be restrained and removed by male teachers. I reiterate that only because it must be his size, or an indicator as to the level of his aggression, that they call the blokes in.

Back in the days that school trips existed, her class never went. They were supposed to get 'a treat' last year which got cancelled after The Kid smashed a newly refurbished bathroom up, tearing up tiles and plaster.

What can realistically be done? There's been years of this now, and my child sounds so bloody upset and defeated. School is miserable. Class is just a battle between keeping the kids safe from this boy. They're watching adults struggling with a raging boy instead of learning. She's worn down by the most shocking, vile language. She's afraid of the chair-throwing and table upending. And when he's 11 it's going to be a lot worse.

I don't know what can realistically be done. At some point the school should surely admit they cannot cope. But they might not. And in that sense maybe I can ask my kid be moved to another class. But that doesn't help the 28 kids left behind.

There's no spaces at other schools. Very long waiting lists. Can't g o private.

This sounds like worrying behaviour from a young child, regardless of SEN. Where has he heard that kind of language at that age, and killing insects for fun? He sounds like he needs more than specialist education to be honest, he sounds like he has some serious issues. Violence is one thing, but this sounds like it's to the extreme. He is being failed and will end up in prison if he carries on the way he's going.
I would be looking at placing my child elsewhere.

There are some similarities with a child I know. Diagnosed with asd at 3. Parents wanted specialist school but LA said child didn't need it or an ehcp. By half through reception was spending most of time outside classroom. When inside was getting distressed, hitting others, throwing furniture and then trying to run or climb out of school. Regular restraints by several staff. This behaviour does not happen at home. Parents told not enough evidence for an ehcp. Part time timetable and ehcp finally applied for. No special school places available so the school permanently excluded the child. No alternative provision with places so child offered a hours a day home tutoring. LA still saying all special schools are full. Parents find a school costing £100K a year and head to tribunal and magically the LA find a special school place. Child now in specialist asd school and does not show any of the behaviour seen in their previous school.

The LEA are failing this child. They are failing the other children in the class. In contrast my "violent child" received the support he needed from late primary (special school which importantly met BOTH behavioural and academic needs). This cost £££££ but it means now as an adult at University he needs very little support. Yes, I cried when he was excluded from primary but my goodness in retrospect was it a good thing for ds1.

I have lots of experience of this from the teaching side and it's absolutely horrible. As a parent I would complain to the school. Sometimes our hands are tied and a push from parents can be the thing to make a change. Email, be polite (as I'm sure you will) and say you're very concerned about the impact this has on your daughters/others, in terms of their wellbeing and their education, say whole class punishments aren't on (because the thing where they missed out on the trip is not ok).

I could have written this, we’re going through something very similar however it’s 3 children. It’s become clear to me and other parents in the class that no learning is happening and it’s just crown control, at least once a week the kids are ‘evacuated’ for safety while 4+ staff restrain which ever one or all 3 have kicked off. One of the three is son of a teacher at the school. She’s apparently devastated, but I do wonder if they are tolerating more madness because of it.
I don’t understand why they aren’t excluding one or all 3? Two have had suspensions one after hitting a teacher, another after scratching a TA so badly she bled (along with 4 kids). One child has been ‘strangled’ by the girl of the three which left bad bruising.
It’s horrific.
All is parents who have emailed and complained are fobbed off. 4 of us mum are in progress dog looking at other schools, we’re told by the parents of class above that class is almost as bad! (One exclusion there for climbing on school roof and refusing to come down).
I’m lucky, we have other options and are going to go private. But I feel guilty for the 26 we leave behind.
The school are negligent.
I don’t know if it’s comforting to know I’m not alone! You’re not in the South east in a small village school on a hill are you OP?

When you complain make sure that you say you regard this as a safeguarding issue. The school have a legal obligation to keep all t he children safe and it doesn’t sound like this can be achieved.

The school then have to act. Although o can’t believe other parents have not already made complaints.

A few more comments:
This is not unusual. The majority of the primary schools round here have at least one “chair thrower”. And we are in a naice , wealthy part of the country.

By and large, our parents didn’t complain. Ones who took it seriously just moved schools. Most people accept that school is doing everything they can, and recognise that the child in question is fairly troubled, and that it’s luck of the draw if you move schools, that you’re not going straight into a similar situation.

And yes, you can exclude an SEND child, you just cannot exclude them and use inability to meet their needs as a reason. We excluded for horrific dangerous and violent behaviour, but at panel we had to show that we had done everything we could EHCP wise and that we were out of road. The LA SEND expert even agreed that we had made all reasonable adjustments and efforts at IRP. Adjustments differ depending on the school - we are a tiny village primary with a single small breakout space. Using that space all morning for a disruptive child meant that no other child could use it, so that wasn’t reasonable for us. It’s a reason why I don’t think I would send my children to such a small school again - they don’t have resources to cope with that.

And the sheer effort it takes to manage a child like this means those with less demanding needs just disappear.

I'd report the school to ofsted and social services. They're failing all the children.
Your child's class should still be allowed on trips ect and his parents should be made to keep his at home on these days.
Also I would have changed schools by now. X

There are a lot of misconceptions on this thread and it was something I was completely ignorant to until I met my DH.

He works in a specialist school for children who struggled in mainstream settings. Some of the children get referred there due to being in care but the majority have loving families and stable home lives but are there due to SEN.

The system as a whole is very messed up. My DH has a class of 4 boys, they often fight, swear, use drugs or break property but generally the setting helps them and the lessons are very different to the amount you'd learn in mainstream schooling.

These schools are very often run by business people who take the money from the LA and don't invest it into the schools.

My DH is an amazing man, he has degrees, masters, teacher training qualifications and has done all of the therapeutic and training in restraint but he is paid around 5/6k less a year than a teacher in a mainstream school. He didn't have the best upbringing but he wants to help children who are struggling.

The system is very broken and I do really feel for the children stuck inside it. These specialist schools are often oversubscribed and can't retain staff, this doesn't even factor how hard it is to get into them.

@fizzypiggy your DH sounds great.
The point about private business is very true. They use vulnerable children as cash cows and do very little with them. They get such a lot of money and i often think if you had just given half that money to the mainstream they would have sorted this out better.

This is probably more down to LEA than the school, the school knows they can't cope, having to replace bathrooms, call in male teachers - they know. The Question is why have they not excluded him and that probably comes down to the LEA. Friend is a head of a junior school and said that their LEA reduces their budget by 10,000 pounds for each excluded pupil. Friend needed to exclude 3 pupils because of the danger they presented to other pupils and staff but could not afford losing 30k, they ended up excluding one and keeping two and paying out for repairs instead.

Blame the LEA, and those in government who insisted on schools are for all and closed the special school places down.

Have pity for the poor teachers and staff who deal with this.

Why is it inaccurate. What chance has that one kid got if he disrupts his education? Whether it's purposeful or not he's not going to have what he needs to succeed later in life but is also impacting other kids that would. Please explain why that is vile and inaccurate?

I am certain that in our school this child would be regularly temporarily excluded and then permanently excluded. Our LA does not punish schools financially for that although of course it is never a first resort.
This child needs to be in a special school.

Please whatever you do don't blame the parents. My poor DB and SIL are the parents of 'that child'. He is adopted and has attachment disorder and fetal alcohol syndrome. He swears (learnt at school not at home) and throws things and is disruptive despite 1:1. He is regularly excluded. This despite therapy and many many assessments and IEPs. They are desperate to get him into a special school but the LA won't pay. They are actually wouldn't mind him being permanently excluded IF the LA are then forced to provide an alternative. They can't remove him voluntarily as they will then be seen to have 'chosen' to home educate him and will get no further help. They are on their knees with all this and can't do anything more. His behaviour is the same or worse at home and they are regularly bitten and kicked and get no sleep. Judgement from other parents about a situation they can't control is all they need. My DB has been very depressed

It's sad for everyone 'the kid', his parents, OP and her child, the teachers, the head. There just needs to be much much better SEN provision in this country. Our county SEN budget is regularly overspent twice over despite the LA moving funds from the general budget every year.

I haven't said his needs trump anyone's. I have said that he needs to be effectively supported for both his sake and that of his classmates

@MNSEN You are totally saying this child's needs trump those of the 29 other children in the class.
The child isn't being adequately supported and the other children are suffering. You only talk about this child's needs, completely ignoring other children are being frightened, caused anxiety, losing out on education, and risking injury. Their safety is paramount, not the disruptive child. He needs to be taken out of the situation until adequate care is put in place, and I doubt it would be in MS.

@saltandpepper234

YABU to call this child “problematic”. I imagine his life is problematic and causing him to behave this way. The school should be trying to understand his behaviour and support him to better cope with his emotions, not restraining him at every opportunity smh

I suspect that the school, staffed as it is predominantly by education professionals, is aware of that. But mainstream schools do not have the resources to provide a therapeutic and supportive environment for one very challenging child when they have a whole schoolful of children to educate.

This is why the EHCP process exists. It assesses the needs of that child and then allocates the resources required to meet those needs to the school in question.

Except it doesn't. The process of getting an EHCP takes years in some LEAs, and while that process is underway, all the children suffer. The EHCP frequently falls short of what the child actually needs so the provision is inadequate, to the detriment of all the children. And dealing with behaviour as challenging as this is a huge ask of teachers who don't have specialist SEN training, and who are also trying to, you know, teach children.

The system is fucked. In this case, and probably thousands more, it is failing both the child with issues and all the other children in that child's class. It is failing the staff who are having to restrain this child and the children they should be teaching while they're dealing with this.

And it's because of this sort of shite that talented and committed teachers are leaving the profession.

This is a horrible situation for all concerned and I really feel for your DD, OP. I think raising your concerns with the HT is all you can do for now, and that if/when that doesn't work, raise it with the governors and, possibly, your local councillor, if they're on the education committee, or the lead councillor for education. But be aware that the head won't be able to discuss much about the child in question, because of confidentiality.

This is an awful situation for everyone, tbh.

The impact is considered on another individual child. There being 9 or 29 others is irrelevant. Doing otherwise is discriminatory because some children will always be in the minority.

@trunktoes

Why is it inaccurate. What chance has that one kid got if he disrupts his education? Whether it's purposeful or not he's not going to have what he needs to succeed later in life but is also impacting other kids that would. Please explain why that is vile and inaccurate?

I mentioned up thread that my DH is a teacher for children excluded from mainstream education.

I think it is unfair to write children with challenging behaviour off like that. My DH has set time in the week where he takes children to work experience and local businesses teach them a trade based on the child's passions.

Some are working towards a career with animals, plumbing, construction, sport etc. I'm sure not all of them will go on to have a stable life and fulfilling career but there are specialist schools and teachers who understand and are trying for them.

@trunktoes - i agree the child would have much better prospects with much more support - we dont know what that support should be or where its is best to take place. Its quite likely in that LA that the alternative isnt a special school or alternative provision or access to therapies at camhs. Its nothing. There are literally 1000s of children with no school place and no medical treatment. For a lucky few that means safe at home and an LA tutor for an hour a week for others it means being prey to county lines in which case, that child might have a better future in school. Even one now safe at home might have been accessing lessons quite well for 50- 75% of the time and doing well academically.
As for the other 29, i have a child in that 29 and it depends on the distruption what the impact is. So violence to children /staff has a huge impact and is excludable. Ive no idea why people are saying it isnt. But tearing up displays and not going on trips isnt going to stop most children reaching their potential. Thats before i get onto things the school could do around trips and special days and displays so that these things dont impact on the rest.
So the inaccuracy to me was you felt that disruptive children get nothing out of school when actually they can still be getting quite a lot compared to the alternative and that all the other childrens chances of becoming a lawyer are completley destroyed by - which i think is an exaggeration for the most part.

@XingMing

VelvetChairGirl, you seriously think that a 22 year old fresh from university and a one year PGCE course (which is very hard work) is equipped to cope with that kind of behaviour? Or should be able to? Frankly most prison officers would resort to physical restraint fsced with anyone so out of control.

That almost made me laugh, but only because I have some neighbours where the man is a prison officer and the woman is a TA who delivers 1:1 support for a challenging year 5 child.

They joke that the husband's job is better paid, a lot easier and less dangerous.

How schools balance their duty of care to all children in these circumstances, when they're not given the resources to do so, beats me. A lot of these problems are down to money, and how much money is in the system is a political decision.

@Smileyaxolotl1

VelvetChairGirl Also it might be worth emailing his teachers with what you just said about the ‘firm and consistent’ thing. As you say they probably think they are being nice but aren’t helping. I would be very happy to receive an email from a parent encouraging me to be firmer/clearer with their child.

I dont know who any of the teachers are only the sen, I have had a couple of meeting with her and have her email and frankly most of the time I bring things up she says no thats wrong he should be getting x or they should be doing y I will have a word with the teacher about that.

I once got a phone call at 9pm from one teacher which I wrote about on here, all phone calls from the school except from the main office are private number anyway.

This type of thing is happening in my DS class, a boy is running riot and male teachers are called in to restrain and remove him. He destroys all the other childrens stuff and hurts them.. what does this boy get, his very own shepherds hut and a garden that no one else can go near. And like my DS asks why does he get nice things for being horrible and hurting us.

@Motherofalittledragon

This type of thing is happening in my DS class, a boy is running riot and male teachers are called in to restrain and remove him. He destroys all the other childrens stuff and hurts them.. what does this boy get, his very own shepherds hut and a garden that no one else can go near. And like my DS asks why does he get nice things for being horrible and hurting us.

You need to bring this up with the school as the child in question should be under better supervision and not reach a point where other children are disadvantaged. He should be taken to his safe place before he reaches this point and his TA recognises his flash points.

Explain to your son he needs this safe space and it's not a reward for bad behaviour, but he certainly should need restraint and removal like this.