To not get the e-mail sign off with pronoun's?

[hehimshehertheythem]

He/him and she/her at the end of an email. Margaret I know you're a woman and Jeff I know you're a man. Why are you teaching me to suck eggs. I don't get it?

I have not once never see a they/them as a sign off, so what is the actual point?

I for one will not be taking part in this madness. But would like to understand the thought behind the people that do? If there is any thought that is.

I have had people refuse to speak or deal with me because I have an obviously female name (I work in a massively male dominated field). I still get asked as to my qualifications/career background when I meet new people on projects at work (male colleagues don't - I notice this!) Early in my career I started to sign my letters with just my initial and surname. I would guess that most of these people who wish to signal their gender haven't been judged as incapable of doing their job on account of their sex. My early career would have been so much easier if I'd been called Chris or Leslie.

@ThinWomansBrain

I get asked to choose my pronouns when I book a hair appointment I do find it a bit weird.

I suppose you'll find all the forms where you have to choose Mr/Mrs weird as well then.

My email signature is Ms. ....... ...,,,
Job title, company name

Problem solved

@MaxNormal

I think being coerced into using them at work is akin to religious coercion.

Sorry, @MaxNormal - I accidentally reported your post instead of replying to it!!! 🤦‍♀️

@MNHQ - please ignore my report 🙃

@deeplyambivalent

I'm less worried about pronouns than I am about apostrophes.

😂😂 marvellous!! 👍

@Greywhippet

It’s no skin off anyone’s nose to do it and it could make someone feel more comfortable with declaring who they want to be so why not? It’s not difficult

Most people assume I’m a white bloke from Liverpool when they hear my name - In my industry, it’s preferable for them to think that if it means stuff gets done.

@MyrtlethePurpleTurtle ha ha no worries

My pronouns are none of my employer’s business and have no bearing on my ability to do my job. Fortunately we haven’t had this nonsense dictated to us yet.

Outside of Twitter the only people I've seen
Or heard using pronouns are stating the blindingly obvious. For woke points I guess. I won't do it.

@OfstedOffred

Yanbu.

I have no intention of stating mine.

If questioned at work I will explain that I am a woman and would usually expect those pronouns, however I work with countries where women can carry less respect than men so prefer not to disclose my sex in an otherwise sex/gender free email (I sign off only with an initial). I will also explain that I couldnt give a shit if I am "misgendered".

Surely in just about every country in the world women are treated with less respect than men. There is plenty of academic research showing that in any work setting where a customer/colleague/supplier can't see a person face to face but believes they are dealing with a woman they will ask more questions and generally make more fuss than they would if they believed they were dealing with a man.

For a woman to put she/her in her email signature when it isn't obvious is therefore asking her to open herself up to this sort of disrespect.

I am out of the workplace now, thank goodness, but had I ever been asked to put my pronouns in my email signature my plan was to ask for a copy of the equalities impact assessment which my employer must surely have carried out before putting this policy in change. I had my headtilt ready as well!

Here's a case in point. Extract below. Article goes on to explain they swapped emails for a bit and they were both astounded at the difference it made. www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/gender-inequality-man-woman-switch-names-week-martin-schneider-nicky-knacks-pay-gap-a7622201.html

Mr Schneider... said that his colleague Nicole was getting criticism from their boss for taking longer than he did on tasks that involved communicating with clients.

As her supervisor Mr Schneider thought this was due to his higher level of experience, until one day he noticed one of his clients acting unusually difficult.

"He is just being IMPOSSIBLE. Rude, dismissive, ignoring my questions," he said, adding "Telling me his methods were the industry standards (they weren't) and I couldn't understand the terms he used (I could)."

He realised the problem was coming from his signature – Mr Schneider was accidently signing all his emails with the name “Nicole” since they shared an inbox and she was handling the project before.

Once he reintroduced himself to the client all the issues disappeared.

On a positive I've had several emails from head teachers with what they are reading underneath their signature it always makes me smile. Much better than pronouns

@Needcoffeecoffeecoffee

On a positive I've had several emails from head teachers with what they are reading underneath their signature it always makes me smile. Much better than pronouns

Love that!

In the formal past, when one wrote a letter 'Dr Mr Smith' or 'Dear Mrs Jones', pronouns were a lot more important than now, when we think not a lot of dashing off an email to someone we're never likely to meet, and probably won't even speak to on the phone, as though we have and are on first name terms. We use 'Hi Danny.....' or 'Hi Alex' where a pronoun has little importance or relevance to the modern day message.

The only people I have seen do it are women. I worked at a company where we were encouraged to do this (but oddly, the male directors didn't bother) and also put our personality profiles on there too.
No thank you to all of that.

@VivX

The only people I have seen do it are women. I worked at a company where we were encouraged to do this (but oddly, the male directors didn't bother) and also put our personality profiles on there too. No thank you to all of that.

Personality profile?

@foxgoosefinch

And god knows how anyone felt “comfortable” before the age of gender ideology! Thank goodness we must now all make ourselves uncomfortable just so a tiny proportion of very self-obsessed young people who believe a bonkers load of rubbish about “gender” can feel “comfy”. Again - you go to work to do a job, not to make other people “comfortable”. FFS. (Note of course the sheer sexism of it always being women’s job to make other people feel comfortable, no?)

Brava!

@VivX

The only people I have seen do it are women. I worked at a company where we were encouraged to do this (but oddly, the male directors didn't bother) and also put our personality profiles on there too. No thank you to all of that.

Star sign? Blood group? Favourite colour, football team, pizza?

@DepletingDopamine

If Margaret and Jeff add their pronouns it displays that they are an ally and won’t assume another person’s gender. It promotes inclusivity. And no, I haven’t been on a course.

In my experience it shows that Margaret and Jeff either:

a) are brainlessly following a trend without a second thought
b) are the same tedious fuckers who like to virtue signal by "including" people like me just so long as we remember our place

Its lip service to appease a tiny minority. Just refuse to do it. As far as I know refusal isnt a criminal offence....yet!

@Isaw3ships

My workplace is encouraging this. They’re suddenly all about diversity while continuing to hire mainly white, upper MC, English staff and underpaying their predominantly female staff. It’s lip service. I’ve been to endless diversity training and asked as a WC, gay, non U.K. woman to talk about how ‘diverse’ we are or are aiming to be and how great it is. But it’s not great. It’s woeful how little actual diversity we have and no amount of adding pronouns is going to change that without a massive culture change at the top.

I'm sure a lot of this is about looking for quick, relatively cheap and easy ways to tick a diversity box. Meanwhile the hard work of making it easier for people with disabilities to work in an organisation, or supporting employees with caring responsibilities (who will be mostly female), is not happening.

[quote Ivyonafence]@foxgoosefinch

The lack of self awareness in your comment is incredible.

One of the reasons people don't feel 'comfortable' and 'confident' in asserting themselves is the resistance and pushback that is clear as day in this very thread.
[/quote]
I'm not sure this is a very sensible thing to say. If we consider this to be a more or less two-sided debate then you are saying that one side feel more comfortable and confident but are not looking at the fact that stating pronouns makes the other less comfortable and confident. Therefore comfort and confidence can only be used as guiding principles if we looked at this from a majority point of view - which means we should not be stating pronouns. Pushback is also felt by people who believe that stating pronouns disadvantages women and entrenches sexist ideologies. Pushback will always be there in an emotive debate - from both sides. So yes, people need to find a way to be comfortable and confident enough even if things do not turn out as they hoped in all areas of life. It's a bit daft to accuse one side of the debate of being unself aware whilst failing to see that the exact same arguments are used by the other side of the debate.

*but it would make things easier to know.

Why?
As I mentioned in my post - just for the sake of clarity when referencing that person in conversation multiple times.

I have quite an unusual name. I wouldn't want people to assume I'm a man and refer to me as such to other people. Maybe that's just me though!*

I don't think it's just you @goodwinter but I certainly think you're among a minority of people, some with more narcissistic reasons than others.

I don't imagine for a second that 'my' Ashley knows, cares or has ever given so much as a second thought to how I refer to them when they are busy doing their job in another country. If they are spending time lobbying their employer to include pro-nouns so that people they have and will never meet use the right ones to refer to them to other people they'll never meet, I'd suspect they haven't got enough work to do.

My name is clearly feminine so that doesn't get mistaken, but I have the same surname as a male colleague and we are often assumed to be either married or Father and Daughter. I literally could not care less. What strangers assume about me makes zero difference to my life, and at no point will I be putting 'Not Carl's Wife' in my email signature.

I suppose you'll find all the forms where you have to choose Mr/Mrs weird as well then.

In forms where this has no relevance then yes, this is weird. It's very context specific. When I have a medical appointment I'm really happy to state my DoB, height and weight. If the hairdressers asked me that, I'd find it very strange indeed.

Huge generalisation alert! I’m guessing that the people that have an issue with this are cisgender.

Well it would be odd if they weren't what you call 'cisgender' (stupid, offensive term) since almost everybody on the planet since the beginning of human existence has been. Which makes it all the more bloody ridiculous that most of humankind is being told to redefine itself in order to pacify and validate a tiny, tiny number of reality-deniers.

Compelled stating of gender-based pronouns should not be allowed and is, in any case, against the Yogyakarta principles laid down to actually protect and help trans people. Not everyone is comfortable 'stating their pronouns', even if they are trans.

Oh and while we're on the subject, as a language teacher I wish people would stop referring to this nonsense as 'using pronouns'. We all use bloody pronouns all the time. They are a normal feature of the language, and most of them have nothing to do with the gender debate.

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee

I suppose you'll find all the forms where you have to choose Mr/Mrs weird as well then.

In forms where this has no relevance then yes, this is weird. It's very context specific. When I have a medical appointment I'm really happy to state my DoB, height and weight. If the hairdressers asked me that, I'd find it very strange indeed.

Well an unnecessary Mr/Mrs/Miss option on a form is much more prolific than pronouns in emails and yet I've never seen a MN thread on this. I wonder why....?