To not get the e-mail sign off with pronoun's?

[hehimshehertheythem]

He/him and she/her at the end of an email. Margaret I know you're a woman and Jeff I know you're a man. Why are you teaching me to suck eggs. I don't get it?

I have not once never see a they/them as a sign off, so what is the actual point?

I for one will not be taking part in this madness. But would like to understand the thought behind the people that do? If there is any thought that is.

I won't ever use pronouns until they eradicate gender inequality (which will be never). I am a woman and you can tell I'm a woman and my name is feminine, so I don't feel like I need to put pronouns in.

[quote NothingIsWrong]@LakieLady what if someone is not ready to be "out" regarding pronouns. Making them mandatory is terrible.[/quote]
Yes! And I don't think it could possibly stand up to much scrutiny as actually being mandatory.

Isn't it in contradiction of the Yogyakarta Principles?

@Quackpot

Oh and for people saying pronoun announcement promotes inclusivity- how would you feel if a colleague decided to announce their religious affiliation in their professional email signature?

Because that is how I regard email pronouns. I don’t believe in gender identity and seeing colleagues put their ( obvious) pronouns in their sigs is fucking weird.

I use a shortened form of my Christian name, which is unisex. As with a PP above I deal with a large number of overseas clients, some from countries where overt oppression of women is the norm. It is useful to me that most of them assume I am male. I will not be declaring my pronouns as it would definitely adversely affect my work. I do not care if people misgender me. I do find the difference in tone of correspondence depending on the gender my correspondent believes I am quite depressing though, especially in the UK/Europe.

[quote AnnaSW1]@DepletingDopamine I'm not cisgender. I'm a woman. Cisgender is a bollocks term in my opinion [/quote]
Agreed!

I saw this from the wonderful Jess De Wahls on twitter and I couldn't put it better

"Women who put she/her in their bio has to be the biggest own goal in human history."

This!!

I've been treated differently when the person I've been corresponding with has realised I'm female. Therefore no pronouns for me.

Also it's counterproductive, if the fast majority of people use the pronouns you would expect then your brain is likely to skip over those who have atypical pronouns.

For PPs who like to put pronouns because they have a gender neutral name - assuming you are female I'd advise you to think again and treasure that name and the foresight of your parents.

There is a proven gender bias against women/female names - this isn't the only research into this, just the first that Google came up with, I've read several.

Say #NoThankYou if asked to state your pronouns.

https://www.exeter.ac.uk/news/research/title8026766_en.html

Grr autocorrect vast rather than fast

As per anecdotal evidence of @dolorsit

And @Myamoth

I don't have a gender-neutral name, but have still had the odd call asking for Mr BashStreetKid. I'm not offended, in some contexts it can be very useful to wrong-foot the caller by saying "That's Ms BashStreetKid actually, how can I help you?"

@AuntyBumBum

Some people also include a couple of lines saying which third-person pronouns they would like you to use to refer to them when they're not there. He/him, she/her etc. It's most important for people who's "gender identity" does not correspond to how most people would label them - eg trans men or women.

Transmen/women who what to be 'read/seen' as the opposite sex, surely chose names that are commonly used by men/women, respectively. So no need of pronouns there.

So far all the people I have seen adding pronouns to sinatures (by choice) were she/her .

@MaxNormal

I think being coerced into using them at work is akin to religious coercion.

I agree.

Someone at my work signs of with:

Her female name in large swirly font
Mrs Normal Font (She/Her)
Bossy Person Bossing Everyone job title in larger font and bold
Various departmental address/phone etc

Do we really need pronouns when one has already used Mrs?
What a load of crap that is.

Yes, exactly this, if it helps some people feel more comfortable and confident about how they express themselves then that’s fine by me. I work at a university and many of the students have said they appreciate this approach and also use the pronouns themselves.

At the expense of people who find this deeply uncomfortable???

That's also fine with you? They get to suck it up?

Why do people care so much about how people refer to them when they are not even there?

It's like saying it's ok for someone to comment out of earshot "I don't think bread is a nice person" but is ok apparently "I think [wrong pronoun] is a nice person" is offensive.

You can't control how other people perceive you. It's that simple.

You can do your best to be diligent at your job and treat everyone respectfully, but you don't get to dictate the language people use to describe you or the opinions they form about you.

University students will be poorly equipped for the workplace if they are pandered to re: the expectation that the world of work will centre their linguistic and ideological "comfort" and they are badly served by academic institutions that promote this expectation.

You're not helping those who appreciate your use of pronouns any more than the students who find it deeply concerning (who won't tell you because you are so invested in this so you'll have no idea how numerous they are).

The workplace is not a "safe space" where they can expect not to be "triggered" by everyone tiptoeing around them.

That aside, it's not about making people "comfortable". It's about allowing them to control your freedom of thought and expression. It not appropriate.

I'd rather just see sex neutral language by default. Why is that so difficult?

Technically companies can’t mandate, it’s illegal, they shouldn’t be doing it. They can recommend and explain why it could be helpful, but within my workplace there’s no heavy pressure or anything to use them. I use them to show support, but don’t judge those who don’t.

Years ago when doing a refresher on office etiquette and emails I was told off for signing off with just First Name Last Name so "Sally Smith " and was told I had to put Mrs or Miss in front of it. I refused and said it was nobody's business if I were married - I did say it was years ago - so was told it would be acceptable to put Ms as they would need to know how to address me.
I still refused and said they would call me Sally or Sally Smith and it would be obvious who they were addressing. It all just seems to have gone from one end of the line to the other.

I just use peoples names, even if in their they have their pronouns. More so ebcuae this whole gender identity and erasing the word woman has pisssd me off enough that anyone who says refer as cis/they/them etc...I just use their name.

*trying to find the source around legality of managing this. Scratching my head as I can’t find it, so I may be mistaken. However, it may come down to a right to privacy under human rights. I do remember reading somewhere that it can’t be and shouldn’t be mandated, as I approached it this way within my workplace as a recommendation based on updated position.

Either way this is helpful - about a recommendation, but not mandating as doesn’t drive the right behaviours
Or values.

www.thehrdirector.com/business-news/diversity-and-equality-inclusion/should-employers-mandate-the-use-of-gender-pronouns-in-the-workplace/

I find myself wishing “angry fucker/sick of your bullshit” could be an option, because I definitely identify with both of those quite often. They are 100% inclusive of everyone.