To not get the e-mail sign off with pronoun's?

[hehimshehertheythem]

He/him and she/her at the end of an email. Margaret I know you're a woman and Jeff I know you're a man. Why are you teaching me to suck eggs. I don't get it?

I have not once never see a they/them as a sign off, so what is the actual point?

I for one will not be taking part in this madness. But would like to understand the thought behind the people that do? If there is any thought that is.

@OfstedOffred

I also don't get why you need to know someone's gender to work with them.

It should make zero difference to your professional treatment of them.

Exactly. In fact it's precisely because it often makes a different to how you get treated that many women prefer to leave things ambiguous. Lets a new client get to know you before making assumptions about your ability based upon your sex.

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/what-happened-when-a-man-signed-work-emails-using-a-female-name-for-a-week_n_58c2ce53e4b054a0ea6a4066

But if you were talking about Ashley from x company to a colleague and said she said email the information over and the colleague would surely just say "oh Ashley is male" and then you would use he next time referring to them.
It wouldnt be use face to face with Ashley or in an email

It is ineffective if forced to use them because it no longer shows support for others it's just following company policy. I think its a nice idea but have to be careful as .ay also push people into saying different pronouns before they are ready.

I have a client whose email signature includes the pronoun footer ‘she/her, but they/them is also fine’.

I mean … aside from the virtue signalling it just seems a bit …verbose?

I've wondered why you need to give two ... he/him - has anyone ever gone for she/him or he/her just to add confusion?!

@LaForza101

I have a unisex name and a non-gendered title. Take the politics out of pronouns and they are useful in emails.

I also contact a lot of people from different cultures where the gender of the name is not known to me so I appreciate it when they use pronouns as Google isn't always clear

I find it enormously useful too - my name is female in some cultures and male in others. And most of my contact with my clients - who themselves come from lots of cultures - is via email, so I don't hear or see them. Yet the formal business culture where I live dictates that it's rude to switch to first names or even Firstname Secondname too quickly, so I'm forced to choose Mr or Ms. There are any number of times I've resorted to Googling the name in the hope of finding more about it.

It's helpful where people have first names that aren't gendered though. There's a Frankie on one team and I had no idea whether they were male or female until she put her pronouns on her sig.

Why does it matter what sex someone with whom you work is though?

Seriously.

If I'm in any doubt, I just use their name or "they". No big deal.

I care far more about them doing a good job.

My name isn't obviously female and frankly there was a noticeable shift in how people responded to me before and after they knew my sex.

I really resent the concept that by stating pronouns "gender identity" becomes important in the workplace. It isn't.

I don't want to bring my "whole self" to work, nor am I interested in anyone else doing so or being expected to validate another persons beliefs/ideology/politics etc.

I don't and won't put my pronouns in my work email because it signifies I believe something I don't (that you can change sex) and that it's remotely relevant to my or anyone else's performance in the workplace.

My experience is that it's so often driven by (predominately white male) Exec's and HR departments trying to be "relevant" and "inclusive" whilst simultaneously ignoring the far more significant lack of diversity/salary parity/seniority wrt to women and ethnicity within the workplace.

So hey - let's celebrate everyone having their pronouns on emails and our Stonewall credentials, but ignore the fact there is no BAME or female representation at a senior level.

[quote Enough4me]@mogkat now you're talking, if I can ID as a cat I would actually consider that. The other options don't appeal to me.[/quote]
I spend far too much time in bed and hide when I've had enough of visitors. As I have been demonstrably "living as a cat", I shall apply for a certificate to have this recognised in law.

@Needcoffeecoffeecoffee

But if you were talking about Ashley from x company to a colleague and said she said email the information over and the colleague would surely just say "oh Ashley is male" and then you would use he next time referring to them. It wouldnt be use face to face with Ashley or in an email

That's fine if one of you knows if Ashley is a man or a woman. We have lots of offshore colleagues whom we only ever speak to via Teams/email, and none of my team know if they're male or female. Obviously not a huge deal in the grand scheme of things (we end up going for "they"), but it would make things easier to know.

I don't get why people put both pronouns. After all, if you use "she", how likely is it that you will use "his"?

but it would make things easier to know.

Why?

We have to do this at work. I'm a bit about it and I mostly think it's my company's way of desperately trying to prove that they're progressive.

Also there are a few people in my company whose Teams status or email sig explains how their name is pronounced. I see this as a similar thing as pronouns for the unisex names mentioned above - it doesn't materially make a difference, but it's good to know that you're referring to someone properly.

(Although maybe I'm coming at this from quite a privileged perspective since I haven't experienced someone treating me differently in the workplace because I'm female - not since I worked in hospitality, anyway - so I do get why some women may prefer not to make their sex clear to clients etc)

@AuntyBumBum

It's so that those who do want to choose non-standard pronouns don't feel isolated in making a declaration.

Yes, exactly this, if it helps some people feel more comfortable and confident about how they express themselves then that’s fine by me. I work at a university and many of the students have said they appreciate this approach and also use the pronouns themselves.

@334bu

*but it would make things easier to know.*

Why?

As I mentioned in my post - just for the sake of clarity when referencing that person in conversation multiple times.

I have quite an unusual name. I wouldn't want people to assume I'm a man and refer to me as such to other people. Maybe that's just me though!

We have to do this at work. I'm a bit hmmabout it and I mostly think it's my company's way of desperately trying to prove that they're progressive.

Authoritarian,misogynistic and transphobic would be better descriptors.

‘I do think it's reasonable if you have a first name that could belong to someone of either sex - or more commonly to another sex.’

It's helpful where people have first names that aren't gendered though. There's a Frankie on one team and I had no idea whether they were male or female until she put her pronouns on her sig.

But why do people even care? Honestly if someone gets my name wrong or suddenly decided I was male when I'm not, I just find it a huge joke. Why do people have to be so touchy and get worked up about what is probably a genuine mistake?

There are far worse ways to accidentally insult someone. I asked the father of one of DD's friends if he was her grandfather after a school event. No idea why I said it I wasn't even drunk and I should know better. He is older than the mother and rarely seen at the school gate. Anyway he wasn't amused and coldly said "I'm her father". (I suddenly saw my BFF across the room and ran ).

We should all be more understanding and a bit more forgiving.
Also I'm rubbish at remembering names. It's downright rude to expect me to remember pronouns as well. If anyone ever picks me up on it I will claim a neurological disorder/head injury or something and claim I'm being discriminated against.

It’s to signify compliance with the ideology.

The trouble is with unisex names is you may not remember that they're unisex and without thinking make the wrong assumption. I met two Ashleys in my new job. The first was a man, so I just assumed the second was without thinking "oh, that's a unisex name, better use "they" until I find out which they are" So I had a very muddled conversation with someone referring to female Ashley as him.

I do get that there might be a certain benefit for some unisex named people in being able to interact with people by email or even teams chats without them knowing which you are. My name is obviously female so I don't get to experience that but think it could be quite fun to see if they treat you differently if they don't know. I'm sure we do all subconsciously act differently around men and women. We've spent our whole lives learning to.

If Margaret and Jeff add their pronouns it displays that they are an ally and won’t assume another person’s gender. It promotes inclusivity.

I think most people consider a pronoun to simply be a cultural marker of biological sex and nothing to do with a person's identity. Choosing between a small range of boxes as a marker of one's identity is clearly unhelpful as identity is such an individual experience. Personally I'd support a sex-neutral pronoun but I can never support the stating of pronouns as, for me, doing so would suggest that my pronouns bear any relation to my identity. And they don't. For me pronouns have nothing to do with identity so I assume nothing when I use them.

@334bu

*We have to do this at work. I'm a bit hmmabout it and I mostly think it's my company's way of desperately trying to prove that they're progressive.*

Authoritarian,misogynistic and transphobic would be better descriptors.

Exactly. Suppose you don't want to come out yet as bi or trans? It forces you either to identify as the sex you don't want to be in, or to identify as trans before you're ready. No-one should be put in that position.

@DepletingDopamine

Huge generalisation alert! I’m guessing that the people that have an issue with this are cisgender.

I have an issue and I am not cisgender. Happy to discuss if that would be helpful.

It’s bullshit, ignore and don’t buy into it.

I totally don't get it- please forgive my ignorance!
Why do I need to know,? I have no issue with how someone identifies, or if someone wants to add the detail to their email. But you shouldnt be expected to, surely in this day and age it's about equality and not high lighting difference in gender...

It's really just to tell all the men that your a woman so they don't need to take you seriously anymore.