To not get the e-mail sign off with pronoun's?

[hehimshehertheythem]

He/him and she/her at the end of an email. Margaret I know you're a woman and Jeff I know you're a man. Why are you teaching me to suck eggs. I don't get it?

I have not once never see a they/them as a sign off, so what is the actual point?

I for one will not be taking part in this madness. But would like to understand the thought behind the people that do? If there is any thought that is.

NothingIsWrong

@LakieLady what if someone is not ready to be "out" regarding pronouns. Making them mandatory is terrible.‘

Yup - I know a few people who have said this - they weren’t ready to declare pronouns. I also know someone who feels neither male nor female but doesn’t like ‘they’ and don’t want to be force to announce anything.

@DepletingDopamine

Huge generalisation alert! I’m guessing that the people that have an issue with this are cisgender.

... and strongly object to being referred to as such

If Jeff writes (she/her) on emails and badge and customers meet Jeff and they see Jeff is male, are they bigoted and using hate speech if they say 'oh I thought you were a woman by your pronouns?'

If me (she/her/hers) putting my “obvious” pronouns in my email signature easier for a colleague with less obvious ones in theirs then I’m all for it.

I have a part time job as an arts writer and I find it a lot easier when people include their pronouns as it makes it a lot easier to be respectful.

I’m guessing that the people that have an issue with this are cisgender

Or even have no gender at all
... I'm a woman. Gender is a sociological construct. I don't have one, much as I dont have a religion. I have a sex as dictated by my XX chromosomes.

‘ DepletingDopamine

Huge generalisation alert!
I’m guessing that the people that have an issue with this are cisgender.’

Nope.we had a massive discussion/argument about this in our work LGBTQ+ grp and it was divided 50/50 pretty much.

What is cisgender if I don't have a gender?

I don't opt for any of the 100s of genders out there, no thankyou.

I'm a cat, miow

It’s a political thing. Adding your pronouns is a public statement that you agree that “transwomen are women” and biological males should have free access to women and girls spaces, male-bodied rapists should be in female prisons, male-bodies girl guide leaders allowed to supervise the girls changing room etc. It’s part of a political campaign to abolish women’s rights.

It doesn’t even make sense. Say Danny is a biological male who grew up with male privilege and never had a period or pregnancy and has male height and male body strength but now identifies as female. He sends me a work email and signs off “she/her.” When I reply to Danny, do I call him “him”, or “her”? Neither, I call Danny “you” because I am writing to Danny. So zero need for any pronoun confusion.

Or, is Danny worried that I might use the wrong pronoun in a conversation with a third person about Danny? Well (a) Danny can keep his nose out of my private conversations, (b) Danny’s email signature is not going to change what I say about him in private conversations, and (c) when I talk about Danny it isn’t the pronouns I’m using that he should most worry about.

@Isaw3ships

NothingIsWrong

@LakieLady what if someone is not ready to be "out" regarding pronouns. Making them mandatory is terrible.‘

Yup - I know a few people who have said this - they weren’t ready to declare pronouns. I also know someone who feels neither male nor female but doesn’t like ‘they’ and don’t want to be force to announce anything.

Same. I've always said that when they invent a word that defines me, and why my gender/sex is relevant to my work, I'll use that. Until then, I won't be forced to use any way to define or label myself.

@mogkat now you're talking, if I can ID as a cat I would actually consider that. The other options don't appeal to me.

The Right to Privacy
Everyone, regardless of sexual orientation or gender identity, is entitled to the enjoyment of privacy without arbitrary or unlawful interference, including with regard to their family, home or correspondence as well as to protection from unlawful attacks on their honour and reputation. The right to privacy ordinarily includes the choice to disclose or not to disclose information relating to one’s sexual orientation or gender identity, as well as decisions and choices regarding both one’s own body and consensual sexual and other relations with others.

Demanding people declare their gender identity in the workplace is transphobic and contrary to the Yogyakarta Principles quoted above.

@Flammkuchen

I cringe when I see it. It see it as performative virtue-signalling, and a sign that the sender supports the removal of women's spaces and women's sports, and using dehumanising language like 'cervix havers'.

That's exactly what I think.

@OfstedOffred

I also don't get why you need to know someone's gender to work with them.

It should make zero difference to your professional treatment of them.

This^

If Sam emails me I will reply Dear Sam.
I am happy to engage with them whatever gender they are. I don't need to know in a workplace, it's not relevant to our ability to work together

@Thirtytimesround

It’s a political thing. Adding your pronouns is a public statement that you agree that “transwomen are women” and biological males should have free access to women and girls spaces, male-bodied rapists should be in female prisons, male-bodies girl guide leaders allowed to supervise the girls changing room etc. It’s part of a political campaign to abolish women’s rights.

It doesn’t even make sense. Say Danny is a biological male who grew up with male privilege and never had a period or pregnancy and has male height and male body strength but now identifies as female. He sends me a work email and signs off “she/her.” When I reply to Danny, do I call him “him”, or “her”? Neither, I call Danny “you” because I am writing to Danny. So zero need for any pronoun confusion.

Or, is Danny worried that I might use the wrong pronoun in a conversation with a third person about Danny? Well (a) Danny can keep his nose out of my private conversations, (b) Danny’s email signature is not going to change what I say about him in private conversations, and (c) when I talk about Danny it isn’t the pronouns I’m using that he should most worry about.

Brilliant

@ImInStealthMode

I've been in regular email contact with an Ashley for several years. Never had need for a video or phone call. No idea if this Ashley is male or female, and makes absolutely fuck all difference to the work we collaborate on.

If I was referring to them to a colleague I'd say 'Ashley from Xcompany'

I had exactly that experience with an Ashley I met in a newish job. I then completely confused a different colleague by referring to Ashley as him (which it turned out was wrong) Very useful if you have a unisex or foreign unfamiliar name, or want other people to use pronouns that don't match the gender of your name or your appearance. Pretty pointless if not. I really don't agree with this idea that it somehow makes it easier for trans people if everyone does it - they're the people who (at certain times at least, maybe before transition or early on) are the most likely to find it difficult and perhaps prefer not to say. So it does come across to me as just trying to look woke for many people.

Some suggested we use our Myers Briggs letters after pronouns in work last month.
Thank god that hasnt caught on.
I just put name, job title and contact details and that's enough

@Thirtytimesround

It’s a political thing. Adding your pronouns is a public statement that you agree that “transwomen are women” and biological males should have free access to women and girls spaces, male-bodied rapists should be in female prisons, male-bodies girl guide leaders allowed to supervise the girls changing room etc. It’s part of a political campaign to abolish women’s rights.

It doesn’t even make sense. Say Danny is a biological male who grew up with male privilege and never had a period or pregnancy and has male height and male body strength but now identifies as female. He sends me a work email and signs off “she/her.” When I reply to Danny, do I call him “him”, or “her”? Neither, I call Danny “you” because I am writing to Danny. So zero need for any pronoun confusion.

Or, is Danny worried that I might use the wrong pronoun in a conversation with a third person about Danny? Well (a) Danny can keep his nose out of my private conversations, (b) Danny’s email signature is not going to change what I say about him in private conversations, and (c) when I talk about Danny it isn’t the pronouns I’m using that he should most worry about.

It's quite possible that you'd use third-person pronouns in multi-person conversations including the person in question. And even if they're not present, the people who are might prefer you to respect their colleague's wishes.

@DepletingDopamine I'm not cisgender. I'm a woman. Cisgender is a bollocks term in my opinion

I'm less worried about pronouns than I am about apostrophes.

@ImInStealthMode

I've been in regular email contact with an Ashley for several years. Never had need for a video or phone call. No idea if this Ashley is male or female, and makes absolutely fuck all difference to the work we collaborate on.

If I was referring to them to a colleague I'd say 'Ashley from Xcompany'

But then you end up having to say something like "I emailed Ashley about this. Ashley said we should do abc because Ashley thinks xyz"; or use "they" instead. I don't agree it should be mandated but I do think it's useful info for people with unisex names to make conversations easier.

Every time these threads come up there's always people saying "my sex/gender should make no difference to how someone treats me", and of course that's true. But there are situations like the above where knowing whether to refer to someone as he or she helps.

@Needcoffeecoffeecoffee

Some suggested we use our Myers Briggs letters after pronouns in work last month. Thank god that hasnt caught on. I just put name, job title and contact details and that's enough

Sweet Jesus 😂

@girljulian

I put mine in my sig because my name is Julian. I don’t like getting emails saying “Dear Mr Lastname” because I’m a woman.

I know a “ Robin” who is a young woman- Not Robyn Hence people can presume she is a man.

People can't even get my name right let alone if I put pronouns in

Today (not real name)
"You're through to Caroline"
"Hi there Sonia"

Delivery driver
"Mrs Smithson?"
"Well it's Miss, and you've added an extra 3 letters to the surname, none of which is on the parcel but yes..."

@deeplyambivalent

I'm less worried about pronouns than I am about apostrophes.

I too thought the apostrophe was the issue.