To not get the e-mail sign off with pronoun's?

[hehimshehertheythem]

He/him and she/her at the end of an email. Margaret I know you're a woman and Jeff I know you're a man. Why are you teaching me to suck eggs. I don't get it?

I have not once never see a they/them as a sign off, so what is the actual point?

I for one will not be taking part in this madness. But would like to understand the thought behind the people that do? If there is any thought that is.

[quote NothingIsWrong]@LakieLady what if someone is not ready to be "out" regarding pronouns. Making them mandatory is terrible.[/quote]
I suspect that management would say that they can use whatever pronouns they like, ie their not-out pronouns.

I'd really prefer to borrow an idea from a really smart guy, and use my preferred adjectives instead. I quite like the sound of "Handsome" and "Brilliant." But I imagine that if I did that I'd end up instead getting labelled with a couple of nouns, such as "Smartass" ...

' My pronouns are sex based just like my oppression'

@FirewomanSam

*I have a unisex name and a non-gendered title. Take the politics out of pronouns and they are useful in emails.

I also contact a lot of people from different cultures where the gender of the name is not known to me so I appreciate it when they use pronouns as Google isn't always clear*

Exactly this. My name is unisex, and people regularly assume I’m male. A lot of people here are saying they don’t understand why you even need to know pronouns, but it happens more often that you think. Like a customer or a colleague will forward my email and say something like ‘I emailed Sam and he suggested I ask you…’ or ‘Sam is having trouble with this, could you help him?’ Yes, it’s technically possible to send those emails and avoid pronouns altogether but it very quickly becomes clunky and awkward to do so. Since I started putting ‘she/her’ in my signature, that has happened far less.

On the flip side, I work with a lot of overseas customers and I’ve tripped up more than once when emailing an Andrea or a Kim or a Nikola who turned out to be male. Years ago (long before advertising pronouns was a common thing) I suggested to colleagues that we should have a field on our customer database to record gender and got told that it wasn’t relevant, but by someone who wasn’t customer facing at all and had never had to deal with that situation!

But why does that matter? Surely the first time you tell them actually I’m a woman that’s it, done, no need to mention it again plus if they see you in person they can see you are female. I wouldn’t assume “Sam” was male or female. I would probably just ask ( if it was relevant which it shouldn’t be in most situations anyway)

We’re told “it’s no big deal to do it” but then it’s no big deal not to do it too
It disadvantages females imo.

I have seen someone on a forum with a signature that says “pronouns cunt/bastard”. Probably not a good idea for work.

Since I started putting ‘she/her’ in my signature, that has happened far less.

Oh yes,that's another thing - why the need to put both 'she' and 'her'? It's not like you're going to have one gender when you're the subject of a sentence and a different one when you're the object! e.g. 'That Sam - she's lovely, I like him very much!'

I have a sort of unisex name (it's usually spelled differently for men and women, lots of people don't seem to know that). It's never arisen that anyone has assumed I'm male. If it happened (regularly) though, I'd probably add (Mrs) to my sign off. Because that's what people generally always did (before the apparent need to virtue signal). I wouldn't add pronouns, because I disagree with it on principle and would not like what it would appear to say about me.

@foxgoosefinch

By which I mean too that workplace communication is not there to affirm or validate any of your sexuality, selfhood, identity or personal self esteem, and it’s rather worrying that other people just doing their jobs is somehow being co-opted into a social service for “validating” other people’s identities. That’s evidence of some very worrying psychological projection in our current culture, and not a very healthy sense of self.

How have I managed doing my job in a university for decades without having other people affirm me as a biologically female lesbian? And me affirming their identities back? Simple - it’s no one else’s business what my “identity” is and I don’t have any business with anyone else’s when I’m just going about doing my job which isn’t anything to do with my gender.

How we have spent decades trying to prove our gender and sexuality shouldn’t impact on our professional working lives, then suddenly find we’re meant to signal it all over the bloody place I don’t know.

👏 👏 👏

Oh yes,that's another thing - why the need to put both 'she' and 'her'?

And especially when people put "she/her/hers" or "he/him/his" which I've started seeing. I know how basic English grammar works, thanks.

I have colleagues who use they/them. As others have said, it's so those that do use the non standard pronouns feel included. Having my pronouns in my email signature doesn't cause me any issues, but helps others.

I also deal with a lot of people who's gender I can't tell from their name. So knowing their pronouns always helps me out.

@FemaleAndLearning My thanks for that short list. I may avail myself of one or two, should the opportunity for such a giggle ever arise

I don't have time or patience for such nonsense. Your either one or the other and that's it. I make no concessions to minority foot stamping.

• correction. You're not your.

what if someone is not ready to be "out" regarding pronouns. Making them mandatory is terrible

I suspect that management would say that they can use whatever pronouns they like, ie their not-out pronouns.

What if that also feels uncomfortable for them and they would rather just leave the information out?

@whowhatwhen

We were asked to do it at work by our LGBTQ+ employee group, not mandatory, but asked if we would, as allies. I work in technology consulting, main for large financial services institutions, and I'd say that over 50% of the emails I receive have a persons pronouns. I suspect mainly it's in solidarity as an ally.

And this is it, "as allies". Emotional blackmail because if you don't do it. and these people don't give a shit what your reasons are (especially of those reasons are the impact on women in the workplace, I wonder if sometimes it's a happy consequence for some people"), you are not an ally and therefore by definition a Bad Person who actively wishes harm on trans and non binary people.

@ColletteTheLot

I have colleagues who use they/them. As others have said, it's so those that do use the non standard pronouns feel included. Having my pronouns in my email signature doesn't cause me any issues, but helps others.

I also deal with a lot of people who's gender I can't tell from their name. So knowing their pronouns always helps me out.

Why? They are telling you how to refer to them when they are not present. If you don't actually know them you can just use their name, or "you" in correspondence. There is hardly ever a reason to use any 'gendered' word in an email.

And They/Them doesn't help anyone with a unisex name - does it? It's a regular catch all, used to refer to anyone and everyone who is not present. How can they feel included if they are not present, can't hear you?

It's all just so much flummery!

I am so relieved my work isn’t doing this. I know my line manager isn’t keen to do it either as we were at a workshop recently where one of the two trainers declared theirs. I’m now the named diversity and inclusion contact for my work - nobody else leapt at the chance, but part of the reason I offered was so it didn’t end up being someone who did want to introduce this stuff (there was a recent “diversity toolkit” sent round for our type of organisation, and it is very much centred on gender with other types of diversity taking a backseat).

We are a disability related charity and the nature of our work means we are very inclusive. Putting pronouns on our emails would make no difference to that, and neither would knowing whether anyone we speak to is male or female, trans or not, etc.

@Needcoffeecoffeecoffee

Some suggested we use our Myers Briggs letters after pronouns in work last month. Thank god that hasnt caught on. I just put name, job title and contact details and that's enough

And Myers Briggs is bollocks anyway according to many psychologists.

Jesus Female, that list

How can anyone say it's not a load of bollocks? I mean if I had to choose one it would take 20 minutes to read through my laptop would crash half way down and choose one. Seeems like a great use of work time

I suspect mainly it's in solidarity as an ally.

No, it identifies you as a bad person, should you not join in. You paint a target on your back, you are not an ally - it is social blackmail.

I get asked to choose my pronouns when I book a hair appointment
I do find it a bit weird.

But the forms which have asked you Mr/Mrs/Ms since forever have been perfectly fine?

@sashagabadon

I don’t think someone’s sec is relevant in the workplace as it’s no longer the 1950’s. I don’t need to know if the person emailing me to ask me something is male or female. I also think it is a regressive policy and not a progressive especially for women.

I agree.

I have a unisex-sounding name and have frequently been mistaken for male. Cue much surprise and discomfort if I ever need to telephone them and they realise that I'm female.

My sex is irrelevant to my ability to do my job. I don't feel any need to declare my sex to anyone and everyone I correspond with because it makes no difference to whatever we're discussing.

I won't be using pronouns now or at any point in the future. They're not the inclusive gesture that people think they are, and only serve to reinforce sex-based stereotyping. As a wise woman said once, no thank you.

We are a disability related charity and the nature of our work means we are very inclusive. Putting pronouns on our emails would make no difference to that, and neither would knowing whether anyone we speak to is male or female, trans or not, etc.

This is the whole point.
True Inclusivity means it doesn't matter the gender of the person you're communicating with (or disability, religion etc).
It's irrelevant, particularly in a workplace.
It's actually a backwards step

My youngest has a unisex name (different origins, the male version is older and more common). It wasn’t the reason we chose it, but I can’t help feeling it’s actually an advantage potentially. If she gets more opportunities and is treated better because people reading her CV/emails etc think she’s male, then great. Just wish society wasn’t so sexist in the first place but that’s not about to change is it.

A lot of critical comments but there are sectors/jobs where this is expected and employees have little choice in the matter...

It's actually a backwards step

Yes! I feel that too.

Just like the gender stereotypes that often come into play in trans identities. Little boy loves sparkly dresses, must be a girl. Progress indeed.